Classes for Awards

[ScoutNut]

The programs for older Scouts (Ad Altare Dei, Light is Life, Pope Pius XII) are supposed to be completed through a trained counselor.

 

The programs for Cub Scouts are not. Like Cub Scouting itself, these emblems (Light of Christ, Parvuli Dei) are family oriented. The purpose is to help bring the family closer together in their faith. I can, sort of, see doing the church/parish portion of Parvuli Dei in conjunction with a priest, deacon, or a counselor who is a knowledgeable member of the parish, but that is about it. This is not, and should not, be a school type lesson. You are not studying for a test (or a BOR as the older programs are). There are no right, or wrong, answers. It is more of a personal discovery for the boy about how his faith is an intimate part of his everyday life, and not something that is only contained in a church, or a classroom, or something that needs a degree in Philosophy, or Theology, to understand.

 

Both my son, and daughter, earned all of their Religious Emblems. I enjoyed working with my son on both Light of Christ, and Parvuli Dei. I think my sons favorite part was making the banner at the end of Parvuli Dei that incorporated everything he had learned, discovered, and done. It was quite large! The only time the Scouts met together was when our Pastor went over their books and banners with them. Again, no right, or wrong answers, just a good discussion between him and the boys.

 

[camilam42]

@ Beavah,

 

You state, "It presupposes a very authoritative, top-down approach to knowledge and faith, where the emphasis is on being taught rather than on learning, on recitin' knowledge of the faith rather than on living the faith."

 

The Church has always had an authoritative, top-down approach to knoweldge and Faith. And yes, there is an emphasis on being taught the Faith, because the Church does know better than any one person. It is a MAJOR difference in philosophy between Catholics and Protestants. But to assume that reciting knowledge of the Faith does not necessarily lead on to live the Faith is a strecth. As Catholics, we believe that to be taught the Catholic Faith is not merely an emotional response to a feeling we have about God. What it is, is a balance between rational understanding and assent of the will. Our emotions are guided by our reason. And if our reason is properly formed, then our emotions will fall in line with being a Catholic. So, being properly formed with regard to reason and assenting our will to that process makes us better Catholics and into a deeper understanding of God.

 

You go on, "Seems like your tweaks of da program make it less likely to reach your goals with the boys, eh? Unless your goals really are all about declaring your own authority rather than leading the children to God."

 

That is a pretty bold statement. And it is one that smacks of Catholic bigotry. Under absolutely no circumstances am I going to impart my own goals with the Scouts. My personal opinion on religion means nothing when I am teaching or guiding anyone, let alone Scouts on a journey to deepen their Faith. The goals remain the same. The parameters make it easier for the parents/guardians to discuss with their Scouts the questions that they will answer when they go home. I will not fill out their books for them, they will do that with their parents/guardians.

 

For Catholics, God is not a personal relationship in the manner of Protestants. We don't base our Faith on our own understanding of what God is or how God relates to our own personal situation. God is objective, not subjective. As Catholics, we know that God is a loving and just God and that he is there to guide and help us to understand Him. But that understanding is guided by the Church, not by a flawed individual understanding.

 

"New Patrol Leaders and new teachers tend to rely more on their own authority rather than focusing on servant leadership, and yeh seem like a young fellow. But why don't yeh try using your NCCS materials and scouting properly for a couple of years before yeh write 'em off and do your own thing?"

 

I'm not that young. And while I am a new leader, I do have a lot of experience in the world. Finally as I have stated, Beavah, I don't have control over this. That lies with the pastor. He has asked that this be the method in which we engage the Scouts and their parents/guardians. I will comply out of obedience and a like minded spirit of understanding the Catholic Faith.

 

You continue, "There's a reason why your own Canon Law refers to the primacy of the parents in the religious education of the young, eh?"

 

Yes, there is a reason, but this isn't it. Canon Law refers not only to the fact that parents have primacy, but also the fact that the Church has a responsiblity to foster and SUPPORT that primacy.(This message has been edited by camilam42)

[camilam42]

@ ScoutNut,

 

"This is not, and should not, be a school type lesson....It is more of a personal discovery for the boy about how his faith is an intimate part of his everyday life, and not something that is only contained in a church, or a classroom, or something that needs a degree in Philosophy, or Theology, to understand."

 

Who said that it would be? Do you know how we are going to be speaking to the Scouts? The assumption is that we're going to do a MB Univeristy type setting. That isn't the case. I've said all along that the parents/guardians are going to do homework with the kids, ie. they will be doing the book settings. What we're going to do is help guide the parents/guardians and the Scouts.

 

As for my degrees, that just happens to lend credence to my being the counselor.

 

As I've said all along, this is about the Scouts and helping them better understand their Faith. As a Catholic, you should know that the age of reason for a child is 7 years old. Most Scouts that I know of are at least 7. Guidance never hurts.

 

But as I've said several times, it is not my call. I'm simply following what is being asked of me.

[ScoutNut]

>>"For Catholics, God is not a personal relationship in the manner of Protestants. We don't base our Faith on our own understanding of what God is or how God relates to our own personal situation. God is objective, not subjective. As Catholics, we know that God is a loving and just God and that he is there to guide and help us to understand Him. But that understanding is guided by the Church, not by a flawed individual understanding."

[camilam42]

I am not going to get into a theolgoical debate with another Catholic or anyone else on the boards. Thank you.

[clemlaw]

Some of us protestants also have a top-down approach, which sometimes goes by the name "sola scritura".

 

It also seems to me that it's somewhat counter-productive to send scouts to a class, unless it's one of those relatively few occasions when a classroom setting is the best way to get the material.

 

I can really only think of two occasions when I was in Scouts when I was sent to a "class", and one of those wasn't even really part of the Scouting program. We were all strongly encouraged to take a Firearm Safety class. It wasn't run by the troop (it was sponsored by one of our charter organizations, I think). I think it was a requirement to shoot a .22 at camp, but I'm not positive. In any event, a classroom is probably a good way to drum into the kids the importance of a book full of safety rules, before actually doing the activity.

 

The other "class" I took in Scouts was First Aid Merit Badge. IIRC, we had First Aid requirements for both Second Class and First Class, and those were generally covered at troop meetings. A couple of times a year, our "theme" for the month was First Aid, so we generally had those covered. This was in those dark days before the EDGE method had even been invented, but that was basically what we did.

 

First Aid Merit Badge was done as a "class", which was conducted by a parent in the troop who was a firefighter. Again, there was specific knowledge that had to be imparted, and a classroom is probably the best way to cover those parts.

 

Perhaps there are a couple of more that I'm forgetting, but those are the only "classes" I remember from Scouting.

 

My religious award (which no longer exists by the same name, as far as I can tell) was not part of a class. It was handled more or less the same way a merit badge is (or is supposed to be) done. Upon deciding to earn the award (probably after a few nudges by my parents and/or troop leaders), I called the "counsellor" (the senior pastor), and I met with him several times in his study. (Pastors didn't have "offices"--the had "studies". )

 

Now, my troop was not connected with any church, so there were a wide variety of denominations represented. So at any given time, there would not have been enough scouts working on one program to constitute a "class". So it's understandable that if the CO is a church, and there are many members of that one church of the same age, it's going to be a lot easier on the religious leader to do some of the work as a group, if not a class.

 

It seems to me that any church or ecclesial community has an obligation to all of its youth to propagate the faith. And presumably, at the very core of that obligation is to teach its youth what that faith is, and what the church believes. And chances are, having "classes", whether they're called "Sunday school" or "catechism" or "confirmation" is a big part of the best way to do that.

 

But that obligation is owed to all of the youth, not just those who happen to be enrolled in Boy Scouts or some other organization that is independent of the Church. (Unless, of course, you require all youth to join that particular orgainzation.) If the church is serious about this obligation (which I assume they are), that means that this important duty is being fulfilled with respect to all of the youth. If the rest of the youth of the church are not being properly instructed in the fundamental beliefs of the faith, or if there are parents whose understanding of the faith are at odds with the church's true teachings, then this is a problem that goes far beyond anything that Scouting can fix. If the reason of the youth (and adults) in the church truly is not being properly formed, then there need to be classes for everyone, not just the ones who happen to be enrolled in Scouts.

 

Scouting should be fun, not just an extension of the school day. Sending kids to "camping merit badge class" wouldn't be fun. Sending them camping would be fun. And in the process of learning how to camp, they will learn a lot of valuable lessons in their life. This will enrich the "book learning" that they should be getting in school.

 

It seems to me that the religious awards can be the same. If the church is already fulfilling its obligation to its youth, then they should already be getting the "book learning" about their faith. A Scout is reverent, so that means that in scouting, we can enrich that faith by providing opportunities to live that faith. That can mean a lot of things. It can mean service. Wasn't it Jesus who said, "do a good turn daily"? It can me sharing faith with parents or others--even if that faith, right now, is imperfectly understood.

 

I'm not familiar with the Catholic religious awards. In fact, the one I earned as a Youth now has a different name, so I suspect other things have changed. But the award I did earn as a youth did not take the place of the normal faith development offered by my church, and I suspect the RC ones were not intended to do that either. Just like Scouting itself, it gave me the opportunity to enrich that faith by doing activities that non-Scouts might not get a chance to do. And very little of what I did could have been done in a classroom.(This message has been edited by clemlaw)

[OldGreyEagle]

Camilam42, you were a little rough on the Beavah there,

 

I should let you know that on occasion Beavah has been an outstanding defender of the Catholic Chuch against those who defamed it. He did so well that I granted life long absolution based on my time in the Seminary (St Charles Borremeo, Lockport Ill, Diocese of Joliet). But then I had to revoke it, I think he is down to 30 days plenary indulgence at this time.

 

What I don't understand is the attitude that one can tell another that the other is doing something not in line "with both da spirit of scoutin... "

 

There is a frequent poster on the forum who is fond of castigating others who harshly judge other people's Scouting Programs by a few lines of text on an internet Forum and reccomends that we as adult leaders encourage and support other leaders who are volunteering their time to the program and doing what they feel best for the charactor development of the youth in their units and trust to their own good judgment

 

I hope he shows up

 

Thank you Camilam for all you do

 

(This message has been edited by OldGreyEagle)

[FScouter]

Would that be the same person that advocates doin yer own thang, and eschews BSA ideology, policy, guidance, and advice?

[OldGreyEagle]

I don't know FScouter,we are such a motley crew, diverse, eclectic, indiscriminate, heterogenouos, and piebald group, we could possibly be talking about two different poster...

 

 

 

 

Nawwwww....

[Beavah]

Yah, OGE, I reckon that fellow is around here somewhere... I met the old scoundrel once or twice. Same with that guy that FScouter is talkin' about.

 

It's ever the life of a commish, eh? Yeh have to pick your battles. Yeh defend the poor SM who is beset by nattering parents, while at other times yeh try to nudge the same SM to try somethin' new. The goal is always to help 'em improve their use of the program as a friend. I don't find tellin' 'em a policy helps, because I can't be around all the time to enforce or interpret it. I like to give folks ideas, suggestions, and reasons.

 

Camilam, that was my only purpose, eh? Scouting is a different thing than catechesis and CCD, and a different thing than a general teen youth group. It's more open and self-directed than the former and a bit more focused than the latter. If yeh try to turn it into catechetical training, yeh really lose a lot of the positive effects that scouting can provide your ministry work.

 

That's why da Catholic religious awards materials are written the way they are, eh? They understand both Catholicism and scouting. What yeh seem to be doin' in your local parish departs a bit from both Scouting and the instructions of your own episcopal conference. I don't know enough about da structure of your faith to say whether that's allowed or not. I'm just suggestin' that perhaps yeh should consider whether the following the NCCS and BSA materials might be more effective than doin' your own thing. That humility bit again. Yeh seem to be providing your own "flawed, individual understanding" of how to do a Catholic Scouting program.

 

(Yah, da smillies are meant to indicate an old fellow talkin' in a gentle, friendly, smiling, chiding manner around a campfire).

 

I like the Catholic religious awards materials overall. I find da Pius XII materials particularly well suited to Venturing. But like any of the program materials, yeh have to use 'em well to get the full effect. Clemlaw makes some excellent points in his post above.

 

I appreciate your not wantin' to talk theology here, eh? It isn't really the place for it. But I'd encourage yeh to seek out some wise, learned fellows in your own faith to discuss your notions more deeply. I think yeh might be missing much of the richness and nuance of your Church. Einstein once said "Subtle is the Lord", and I've always admired you Catholic fellows because your faith embraced that nuance and subtlety without rancor. We separated brethren are much more bound to our books, eh? I think you'd find a deeper exploration of Catholicism both enriching and enlightening.

 

Beavah

 

(This message has been edited by Beavah)

[OldGreyEagle]

 

:: Gotta Love the Beav::

 

[camilam42]

@ Beavah et al.,

 

This is the last time I will post on this topic, as I believe that it has become a circular conversation.

 

First, this "model" wasn't my decision. I am merely the counsellor. I don't have any control over how the unit determines the means. I am just working as part of the whole in our Pack.

 

Second, I have a very good grasp on Catholicism and while I am always looking deeper into the Catholic Faith, that doesn't mean that I don't understand what I am talking about when it comes to Catholicism.

 

Third, I agree that there is something inherently good in the Scouts doing the work with their parents/guardians. However, it seems that everytime I bring that up, it is ignored and the idea of "classroom" is just hammered a little more.

 

Fourth, Scouting should be fun, but who is to say that the way I present is dry and not fun? Who says that I am going to do it in the school? Who says that I wouldn't do this around a campfire? The assumption is that I am going to be acting as a teacher rather than a facilitator. We all know what assumptions do.

 

Finally, this has never been about me "doing my own thing." This has always been about the Scouts. This has been about a modification which was determined BY OTHERS, who have been involved with Scouting for years, that it may be a better way to get participation, which ultimately will lead the Scouts to a greater understanding of their Catholic Faith. End of my story.

[WAKWIB]

A couple weeks ago he's telling the Mormans how to do it right. And now he's a pesterin' da catholics.

Sometimes methinks Commish Beavah doth advise over-much.

[FScouter]

Aw, shucks, whatta guy. Makes one feel all warm and fuzzy inside. Heck, I may even take the knots off my uniform.

[Cubby's Cubmaster]

Not much to add to this post except my own personal experiences with both the Parvuli Dei and the Ad Altare Dei. I earned the AAD as a youth and my son earned PD as a Webelos scout. My AAD was done as a class of 12. The AAD focuses on the sacraments. It was a lot like my CCD preparation for Confirmation. I enjoyed the group discussions in the ADD class and the breakout sessions in small groups. I think it added a lot to my understanding of my faith. I don't think a one-on-one with the AAD counselor would have been as good of a learning experience. This was my experience. As for the PD, we followed the guidelines and I worked with my son directly. Our local catholic church pack ran it as a den program. Given the topics covered, I think it is better to do PD as parent/son. The shared experiences and sharing of faith together were good for both of us. As Stosh says...you're mileage may vary.

 

Regards,

CC