Real Rules vs Traditions

[Gary_Miller 10]

The point I was trying to make is that a YM who is holding a rank above 1st Class, Should be holding a POR, and if they are not holding a POR they should be working on an assigned leadership project. The point being they should be doing something to fulfill this requirement, and its the SMs duty to make sure the opportunity exists.

 

while I agree that there are some who are better suited for one position over another. Part of holding a position is to learn while in the position. Some may do the job better than others, however you can never learn if you don't have the opportunity to try. That's why I feel the most important responsibility a SM has is to train and advise the leadership of the troop.

 

acco40, "Effective for whom? I admit it, I don't like the practice of having DC den chief for his younger brothers den especially when the parent of the DC is the DL. Why not have your son serve as den chief for another den?"

 

In my situation there was no younger brother, I used my boy as I wanted a DC to help in the den and there was no one else who would commit to being there every week. The boys who were in the den are now good friends with my boy and look up to him as an example of a good scout/youth.

 

 

 

 

[ScoutMythBuster 10]

That is assuming the troop has First Class' who wish to be DC's.

[gcnphkr 11]

Gary_Miller: "The point I was trying to make is that a YM who is holding a rank above 1st Class, Should be holding a POR, and if they are not holding a POR they should be working on an assigned leadership project. The point being they should be doing something to fulfill this requirement, and its the SMs duty to make sure the opportunity exists."

 

I'm not sure how realistic that is. Take the troop I serve as an example. Excluding special projects the troop can handle about 26 PORs. There are 43 scouts that are First Class and above. Currently, 24 of them are needing PORs. Twelve are currently serving in a POR. That leaves 12 needing one. I have 4 open positions waiting to be filled and could handle 2 or 3 more Instructors and maybe a Den Chief. That means we would need 4 special projects, not a trivial task. SM assigned projects don't help the 7 Life Scouts at all and often worthy projects are also potential Eagle Projects. It is also not right to exclude those that do not need a POR from holding one. There are 8 Eagle Scouts, they can't all be JASMs but not involving them is a sure way of loosing them. Over the next six months I expect another 8-10 scouts to earn their First Class, having positions waiting for each as they advance could only be accomplished by removing scouts already serving.

 

I've always been able to have a POR or project for every scout that wanted one and was willing to do anything. But to make sure that everyone that needs one has one is unrealistic.

[Lisabob 13]

Gary writes: "The point I was trying to make is that a YM who is holding a rank above 1st Class, Should be holding a POR, and if they are not holding a POR they should be working on an assigned leadership project."

 

Not sure I agree, Gary. This is most likely true for a lot of boys who are Star, Life, and Eagle rank. But not all boys, all the time. My own son might be a good example. He served as SPL all of last year (while Star rank). While he learned a lot and it was (overall) a worthwhile experience, it was a long, stressful year. He's tired and just wants to have some fun for a bit. He's also in a school program this year that places a lot of serious demands on him. That means prioritizing. It wouldn't be a good year for him to take on a major POR, for sure.

 

If some adult insisted that he have a POR or be working on an assigned leadership project, then soon, that adult might be wondering how come my son was never around at scout events any more. Remember, this is a voluntary activity!

 

Also, advancement is not the be-all, end-all for some boys, especially past 1st class. There are many aspects of scouting that might appeal to (and benefit) a boy that do not require a formal POR.

 

 

[ScoutMythBuster 10]

Jet526, I agree with you. School responsibilities must come first and if a POR is going to interfere the Scout should understand his or her own limitations (used both in case we have any Venturers here).

 

Also, even though your Troop has 43 Scouts (which is great) not all do. Some inner city Troops have dwindled over time, while others are disproportionate in rank (ei top heavy with few younger Boy Scouts or the opposite). There is an area in one of the Districts I have visited where they have only 9 Packs averaging 15 kids each. In this same District there are only 3 Troops. Of the 3 Troops, 1 has all older Scouts and prefers to sit back and wait for the cubs to come to them, that's why they are all older scouts. The other 2 troops are a year or 2 old, with much younger scouts. These 2 actively take interest in the Packs for hope of recruitment and to help the boys gain experience. I agree, demographics could cause 1 group to see things differently in regards to POR. I guess, fluctuating numbers can make traditional decision making unrealistic.

[ScoutMythBuster 10]

Councils being more restrictive is different than a a policy being written to be compliant to local laws. If a local council says that 12 year old cannot earn the Shotgun Shooting MB because the local law says you must be 16 to fire a shotgun. That is compliance to local authority. Saying all Boy Scouts must have a certain hair cut, I know this is a ridiculous example, that would be a local Council Restriction. The sheathed knife thing is usually a local knife ordinance based on lwas regarding blade size, ect.

[gcnphkr 11]

ScoutMythBuster: "while others are disproportionate in rank (ei top heavy with few younger Boy Scouts or the opposite)"

 

This should be the case for all traditional 7 year programs. Say the number of scouts scouts join each year and they all stay for 7 years (making this simple). Also assume that it takes an average of 18 months to First Class. Then about 4/5 of the troop is at least First Class.

Of course there is going to be attrition, but even then a troop that recruits enough to replace loses will be about 3/4 First Class.

[BrentAllen 10]

Gary_Miller: "The point I was trying to make is that a YM who is holding a rank above 1st Class, Should be holding a POR, and if they are not holding a POR they should be working on an assigned leadership project. The point being they should be doing something to fulfill this requirement, and its the SMs duty to make sure the opportunity exists."

 

I would disagree. First, the Troop has the responsibility of getting the Scout to First Class. After that, it is up to the Scout to determine how far he wishes to advance.

 

Second, our goal is to build the best Troop in the council. I tell the Scouts, in order to do that, we need to have the best leaders holding Patrol and Troop officer positions. We don't just hand out PORs because a Scout needs one for advancement. The boys hopefully elect the best candidates as their leaders, and the SPL appoints Scouts to Troop positions who he thinks are going to do the best job. If a Scout wants a POR, he has to "earn" it - by showing up at meetings and campouts, by being helpful, by being a go-getter. If he doesn't, he isn't going to get elected or appointed. The Scout needs to recognize and meet his obligations to his Patrol and the Troop. If he does this, he most likely won't have a problem with a POR.

[BDPT00 41]

"The sheathed knife thing is usually a local knife ordinance based on lwas regarding blade size, ect"

 

Wait a minute! As long as we're talking rules, where did that one come from? A local knife ordinance?? C'mon.

BDPT00

[Eagle92 110]

BDP,

 

Yep there are municipalities that have ordinances against sheath knives. Cary, NC is one such place. Also NC does hava n ordinacne against "Bowie knives", except fore educational purposes.

[BDPT00 41]

Is not Scouting a place with an educational purpose?

BDPT00

[Oak Tree 15]

Cary, NC doesn't have a general law against sheath knives.

 

The town does have a law that says "No person shall carry a knife upon his person having a blade of three inches or longer in Parks/Recreation Areas." At least, that's according to this site that summarizes knife laws in various places: http://www.handgunlaw.us/documents/USKnife2.pdf

 

From the town ordinances, the only reference to knife is

Sec. 24-10. Weapons.

No person shall carry a knife upon his person having a blade of three inches or longer or have possession of or discharge a BB gun, air rifle, bow and arrow or any other type of lethal weapon in any park [emphasis added] except at public exhibitions and with a permit from the director of parks and recreation.

 

 

The NC general statutes do ban carrying a concealed bowie knife.

 

14‑269. Carrying concealed weapons.

(a) It shall be unlawful for any person willfully and intentionally to carry concealed about his person any bowie knife, dirk, dagger, slung shot, loaded cane, metallic knuckles, razor, shurikin, stun gun, or other deadly weapon of like kind, except when the person is on the person's own premises.

 

Also, you can't take bowie knives (concealed or not) onto educational property. You can't sell them to a minor, either.

 

So yes, there are local knife ordinances, but the one in question is a bit more mild than a general ban. Many towns and cities in North Carolina have a similar law banning weapons in parks and/or municipal property.

[Oak Tree 15]

ScoutMythBuster writes: The only thing that needs to be monitored is that the boys are electing or appointing positions by ability and not by popularity. I think that when its a popularity contest is the only time a SM should step in and make sure the scouts understand the consequences of their decision.

 

I understand the thinking here, but this strikes me as an easy path towards adult-led. Adults will often think the Scouts are making a decision based on popularity, and regardless, it's not at all easy to define what the difference is - how do you tell what is causing a particular vote? Also, if an adult jumps in and overrules an election where Ezekiel won, that has the possibility of making Ezekiel frustrated/angry/disillusioned (and it also has the possibility of a future unpleasant discussion with Ezekiel's parents about how you publicly embarrassed him.)

 

If you sense that the boys aren't doing a good job choosing leaders, I'd suggest you might rather see adults try to do things behind the scenes, either before or after the election. Before the election you can sit down with the candidates, one-at-a-time, and review the expectations of the position. If it's someone you don't think is up to the job, you might emphasize the aspects of the job that you suspect he would hate. You can also veto him ahead of time. If you let him run, I think you have to let him win.

 

After the election, you can start work on coaching. If the Scout just isn't going to do the job ("I just can't make it to PLC"), then you could discuss removing him. But it's good for Scouts to see that their votes matter - that's the best way to get them to take the voting seriously. If the troop is all adult-led and it doesn't matter who the boy leaders are, then why should the Scouts care about voting?

 

I've never overruled an election in our troop. I've let some terribly unqualified people run for election because I know the Scouts take the election seriously and would not elect him. I've occasionally talked a Scout or two out of running. But if an unqualified Scout won an election, we'd give it a try.

[ScoutMythBuster 10]

Oak Tree, yes I see your point. Do you think that a meeting or two before the elections or appointments by the SPL to have a SM Minute discussing electing friends because they are friends vs electing for the well being of the troop / patrol? You are not trumping the election, nor are you directly influencing. You are just speaking on the importance of the right person in the right job.

 

And as for BrentAllen's statement "the Troop has the responsibility of getting the Scout to First Class". I don't know if I fully agree. The Troop is responsible for presenting the material, having adequate activities for the Scout to practice and learn. But being Responsiblefor getting the Scout to First Class I feel it is still ultimately on the Scout. I have had years where we offered everything and the Scout showed up for nothing. You can lead a horse to water but you cannot make him drink.

[shortridge 184]

The only thing that needs to be monitored is that the boys are electing or appointing positions by ability and not by popularity. I think that when its a popularity contest is the only time a SM should step in and make sure the scouts understand the consequences of their decision.

 

Sometimes, the most popular Scouts will surprise you with their ability. Give every Scout a chance before you write them off.

 

The SM should not be stepping in and interfering with the elections results. That's just as bad a plan as appointing the SPL and PLs directly.

 

Pre-emptive SM conferences with each of the boys interested in running for office, making sure they understand the duties and responsibilities of the job? That's a much better way of going about it.