Outdoors? Leadership? After School Activity?

[Eamonn 61]

I do understand that most of the forum members are very passionate about scouts and scouting.

Seems to me that a good many are what I might call "Traditionalists".

 

Lately I have been wondering where we are headed?

 

As a Lad I joined scouts because I liked doing the outdoor stuff.

Another big draw for me was the freedom that scouting gave me, doing stuff without the supervision of my parents or school masters.

Living in downtown London, just being able to get out of the city was wonderful. (Maybe that is one reason I now enjoy living in a very rural setting?)

When I first became an adult leader a big part of what I wanted to do was to have the scouts I served share in the joy that I'd had as a scout.

 

We never had any "Leadership Courses". Leadership was a skill we picked up by just doing what we did. Setting up and breaking down camps, cooking meals,pioneering projects, just the everyday run of the mill scout stuff.

Our PLC meetings were more about planning events and activities that were going to be fun and a challenge.

If we did teach Leadership it was all about "On the Job Training" - No fancy Buzz Words or acronyms. The main goal was getting the job done in as nice and as pleasant a way as possible.

Sure if a P/L had set himself up as some sort of Bullying Dictator ways were found to bring him back down to earth. If a patrol was not getting what needed to be done, done. We found ways of helping the P/L do his job better.

We used the Scout oath (Promise) and Scout Law to show that things went better when we all went out what we had to do using this code.

I'm sure that deep down we knew that we were passing on what today would be called Life Skills. We knew that what we were doing in this Boy Sized World, would later in life serve the Scouts who were part of it.

About the time I started as an adult leader youth clubs were starting to spring up. It seemed that each and every housing project had it's own youth club. These clubs never seemed to really know what to do with the kids that came along. They offered a warm, dry place for young people to hang out. Some did have little trips and tried working with local Troops to take the kids camping.

I do really think that these clubs had the best of intentions, the people who staffed them did think that they were doing a lot of good. But to be honest for me, I didn't like the lack of any real structure or plan. They seemed to move from one idea to the next without any real sense of direction.

One of my big fears is that this could be the path that the BSA is going to take.

More and more we seem to be departing from the "Outdoor Stuff". - Leadership is no longer in that Boy Sized world, it has become the "Thoughts Of Chairman Blanchard". A skill that no longer happens in the "Real" world of a patrol doing things and accomplishing tasks.

While we maybe are not as bad as the youth clubs that I knew of in the past, we do however seem happy to herd the Scouts we do have into a place that is warm and dry and offer classes in the Merit Badge of the Month, The Leadership Skill of the Day.

We seem happy to moan and groan about i-pods, cell phones and the like but at the same time ignore the fact that our leaders no longer have the skills that they can pass on to the Scouts which will provide the Scouts the skills they need to get the most out what we could if we wanted offer them.

In the area where I live we now talk about "Older Scouts" being any Lad who is 14!

Talk to ex-scouts older than 14 and its not homework, sports or video games that enticed them away. They will tell you that they were bored.

It's a sad day when we have to admit that we no longer have the skills or the imagination that will hold the interest of a 14 year old.

Eamonn

 

 

 

[le Voyageur 72]

My own thinking is that the problem lies at the Council level...many Councils seem to have little to no interest in outdoor programs. Just fundraisers, golf outings, and big dinner events. Too much hob nobbing, not enough scouting

[Eagle92 110]

le V,

Got to play Devil's Advocate, council camps and services are expensive, so fund raising IS important.

 

BUT you are right that some are more focused on fundraising than outdoors, or can I say rather PROGRAM. Glad that my SE, while paying a good bit of attentions to fundraising, is a "program freak" who is pushing for more outdoor activities at all levels, pushing to improve the council's camps, challenges the OA to not only do more and better camp promos BUT also raise more money for camperships since more Scouts will need them, AND puts his money where his mouth is by actually WORKING with volunteers to improve the council's camps ( not only did Hell freeze over the past few weeks b/c the SAINTS won the Superbowl, BUT I found my pic of an SE working at an Ordeal!)

 

 

OK that said how can we focus on getting leaders the outdoor skills?

 

#1 training. I've found that generally if they are not prior military or Scouts, then they don't have the outdoor skills. So training is key

 

#1A Mentoring. Having Older, experienced leaders menot the new ones is great. Not only in outdoor skills but other areas as well.

 

 

#2 GET THEM OUTSIDE, GET THEM OUTSIDE, GET THEM OUTSIDE! ( CAPS FOR EMPHASIS) Councils need to provide outdoor programing, especially at the CS level, so that the CS and paretn get use to the outdoors and build up their skills.

 

[Beavah 205]

I've found that generally if they are not prior military or Scouts, then they don't have the outdoor skills. So training is key

 

Problem is if they're adults and don't yet have da skills, odds are they also don't have the interest, eh?

 

One of da things I see happenin' is that there are a lot of young adults participatin' in outdoor recreation - bike clubs, paddling clubs, ski groups, lots of young adults in climbing and snowboardin' and skating and such. But they don't volunteer with us as much as they used to. BSA isn't associated in their minds with da sort of fun outdoor pursuits they enjoy. That's mostly not a conscious rejection of Scoutin' (though there's a bit of that from our poor rep as campers or for political reasons). Mostly it's that we're just not "present" in the outdoor community as fellow outdoorsmen.

 

So rather than think of us, they volunteer with church camps or climbing gym youth programs or that sort of thing.

 

That's a big loss, eh? Can't seem to get anyone to pay attention to it, though. Da professional crowd and most of the council and regional volunteers tend to be doin' what le Voyageur talks about, eh? They don't move in da outdoors communities either.

 

Beavah

 

[skeptic 1002]

Beavah;

 

Please consider revising your idea that scouting has a poor rep in regard to camping. I still do not know where you are getting that idea. Your earlier comments regarding it seemed to be based on a very small negative sample; and most of the posts in response seemed to negate that idea.

 

Certainly in our part of the country, it is not the case. Quite the opposite.

 

Just a thought. Thanks.(This message has been edited by skeptic)(This message has been edited by skeptic)

[le Voyageur 72]

Got to play Devil's Advocate, council camps and services are expensive, so fund raising IS important

 

Of the five different Councils that I've been involved with over the years, and having staff their camps, only one of those Councils has found the balance between fund raising, their programs, and retaining quailty people. Both professionals and volunteers, the current one I'm with. So, I do know that fundrasing and budgets are important. Got a lot of pride in this Council, it's SE, and it's camps.

 

But Trust me, with 17 years of experience working summer camps there are BSA camps that I wouldn't board my dog at because the owning Council has cut too many corners, in too many areas. As I see it, any time a Camp Director feels his tenure was a success because he got the breakfast meal down to 17 cents a plate, speaks volumes about his chain of command...

 

 

 

 

[JoeBob 606]

Advance appologies to all the barristers out there.

 

I think Scouting has lost a lot of it's appeal because of the lawyers. I've only been back for 3 years, and am now only a Bear DL; but the effort put into risk aversion seems to have sucked the fun out Scouting. Common sense safety precautions have grown into mandantory training, certificate renewal training, and absolute elimination of the possibilty that anyone could get hurt and BSA get sued.

All of the adventure sports that Beavah mentions, "bike clubs, paddling clubs, ski groups, lots of young adults in climbing and snowboardin' and skating" used to be things that we did and learned on our own. We learned from our pain and enjoyed it.

 

Think back and remember all the crazy stuff that we did that would never pass muster in today's Scouts.

Rope swing off a cliff into Lake Rabun? Somebody might not let go and swing back into the rock...

Canoe through class 3 Yellow Jacket shoals before the invention of flotation? (Swimming through the last half and having to use a forked stick as a paddle to finish the trip was educational!)

Hatchet of sheaf knife throwing? My list goes on and on. I hope your list is as long.

I'm sure that more challenging (risky?) activities will allowed as my son and I move up ranks. If not, we'll be going underground.

 

 

If a boy can't fine-tune his use of testosterone in Scouting, he'll probably be just as satisfied at home on his couch skiing the wii.

 

 

;~)

JoeBob

[Scoutfish 16]

Well, don't bash too much training just yet.

 

You ever see a mom or dad dropp off his 8 year old daughter or son with her/his two other 8 yrear old best friends at a movie theatre - and tell the kids that they will be back in a couple hours? Well,they did leave a cel phone in case of an emergency!

 

Yeah, those parents might also think scouting would be a great activity for jr. And since scouting, the big ole woods and nature al go hand in hand, why not give the 8 or 9 boys a couiple shotguns and rifles and tell them you'll be back to camp in a couple hours ?

 

Sounds crazy right? Or does it.

 

Now stop and think of all your years in scouting. Did you ever se a parent or even a group of parents that made you wonder if their kids survived into adulthood?

 

When those parents think about becoiming adult leaders..that's why their is training!

Now look at yourself. Look at those parents. Then realize that there are about 20 different levels between the two of you.

 

And that's why their is specific training and standards instead of just "having it"!

 

See, I am an ADL that (as a parent) helped teach a BB gun course at a pack campout. No,,, I had no idea it wasn't allowed. I do now though. Matter of fact, I'm taking BALOO in 2 days.

 

Now imagine that shotgun dad. Suppose he brings a shotgun to a pack campout?

 

Granted, followed the safety rules , but only failed to realize BB guns can't be done on a pack level campout instead of council.

 

Shotguns and rifles? Never would have comnsidered it...But...

 

Just saying,.... those kind of people are out there !

[JoeBob 606]

Scoutfish,

First, I'll concede your point. Watching some of the physically unfit, uncoordinated, and mentally challenged moms trying to learn to shoot BB guns in my certification class; I was glad that my range was at least two-counties away from where they would be firing BBs.

But second, we need to give Darwin room to work! Have you seen some of the rejectmenta in the gene pool?

[Scoutfish 16]

JoeBob, I am a fond beleiver in Darwinism and natural selection at work.

 

I just don't want the candidate for the Darwin Award dragging my son ( or myself) with him/her.

 

Know what I mean?

[Beavah 205]

Yah, there are other answers possible, though, Scoutfish.

 

One answer to knowin' that there's stupid people out there is to label every hammer, ladder, and pocketknife with warning stickers, eh? And then make 'em sign 3 pages worth of waivers. And then try to legislate away every chance that someone might do somethin' dumb. I hear it's illegal to tie your alligator to a fire hydrant in Detroit.

 

I reckon I've seen enough of that kind of legislation and risk management. Written some of it myself, I apologize for sayin'. None of it is worth a plug nickel.

 

Another way of thinkin' about it is "don't hire stupid people." So if you're a CO or a unit committee (or a parent looking for a program for your kid), spend enough time to know whether the person's got some common sense judgment before you buy. And then let 'em do their thing. Saves a lot of time and money on warning labels and a lot of printing costs on rule books.

 

So yeh did a BB gun class. No harm, no foul. Yeh had enough sense not to run a shotgun class with cubs, and enough sense not to turn the class or the BB guns over to the ladies you were talkin' about who didn't have the skills to handle 'em on their own. And yeh had enough sense to keep learnin', and reconsider whether yeh should do a BB thing on da unit level.

 

That kind of safety actually works, eh?

 

Tryin' to legislate against this, that, or the other place not to tie an alligator doesn't, nor does bein' so risk adverse that yeh stop lettin' kids have pets because somebody somewhere might buy an alligator.

 

Don't blame da lawyers, though. Lawyers are ethics-bound to give yeh the best possible legal advice, eh? That ain't the best possible how-to-raise-a-kid advice, or how-to-run-a-scoutin'-program advice. Up to you to figure that out, and tell legal critters where to stick it when it's appropriate. Same as if da best possible car advice is to buy a Lamborghini, but it ain't the best possible marriage advice. Don't blame your divorce on da fellow who sold you the car. That was all you!

 

Beavah

[Scoutfish 16]

Beahvah..i totally agree with you! I wouldn't (if i had that authority) put "that kind of person" in a leadership position to start with.

 

but if your group of volunteers are that "kind" of person, and the regular parents just don't know better...them rules might just come in handy.

 

Now, the council might only be looking at lawsuits and money side of things..and that's fine and dandy with me.

 

But as a parent who might not know better ( in the case of BB guns - I didn't), and thinks leadership actually knows what is going on.... I am glad for those rules.

 

Case in point: I might not have a pet alligator. You might, but keep him in the pond where he belongs. Both of our sons spend the night with a 3rd friend who's dad just happens to be the idiot who sees nothing wrong with tying his alligator to a hydrant.

 

So i don't need the rule, you don't need the rule, but luckily for us, the rule protected our sons , plus who knows who else too!

 

That's why I'm glad for those rules!

[Scoutfish 16]

It's sad we have to have the rules. I grant you that. But It would be sadder to not have them and lose a scout, sibling or parent because of accident or injury that could have been prevented due to some simple training.

 

Besides... maybe the guy who owns that alligator will decide not to lead once he realizes that he is expected to follow those rules

[Twocubdad 665]

Part of the equation has to do with expectations.

 

When I was a scout we were perfectly content to "just go camping." We spent many the weekend sitting around a campfire, shooting the breeze with our mates. If there were a creek or pond nearby, we were in hog heaven catching and eating crawfish, frogs or fish. Our scoutmaster and many of our assistants were veterans and we typically camped bivouac style. As we got into high school, several of the guys "dropped out" of scouting, but our old "patrol" went camping more then than we did when everyone was still in the troop. Even then, we still enjoyed hanging out with our friends in the woods for a couple days.

 

These days, that's not good enough. In the past year, our troop has been snow skiing, water skiing, on a canoe trek, skeet shooting, rock climbing and rappelling, mountain biking, backpacking and wilderness survival training. Aside from the heavy-duty certification required for shooting and climbing, that's a lot of expertise the troop leadership has to bring to the table. Even still, we have people (mostly adults, a couple boys) who don't think we do enough high adventure.

 

That pulls us in a couple directons. For one, it pushes us more in the adult led direction. Not many 16 year olds own ski boats or are qualified to teach shotgun shooting. But mostly it sets up a expectation that troop outings are going to look like Mountain Dew commercials. And it's not like we can develop a focus in one area. The demand is to always do something different or go somewhere different. Last fall we camped at our council camp three months running. GOOD GRIEF! You would think we were beating people. Of course one month we were training on the canoes and another month we were using the shotgun range. The third month was our campout with the Webelos and we intentionally hold that at the camp to show the Webelos around. But a couple folks just go off regardless.

 

Seems to me it's more about entertainment than it is about a love of the outdoors.

[OldGreyEagle 5]

"Watching some of the physically unfit, uncoordinated, and mentally challenged moms trying to learn to shoot BB guns in my certification class;"

 

where was this? Were the mentally challenged moms insitutionalized?