How Much Commitment is Enough?

[adanecito 11]

Hi All,

 

In my troop right now there is quite a bit of discussion around attendance. Some feel 100% or Scout should leave and others there should be exceptions for Sports, Clubs School events tests such as SAT, ACT ect. I believe a well rounded Scout should be involved in activities outside scouting and ask that question at Eagle Board of Review. If a Scout consistantly misses meetings and campouts year after year then I would talk to them about commitment and getting the best out of Scouting.

 

Any thoughts on this subject?

 

Thanks,

-Tony

[packsaddle 753]

Adanecito, Welcome to the forums! Some discussion relevant to your question can be found in a previous thread:

http://www.scouter.com/forums/viewThread.asp?threadID=169077#id_169299

Your question seems to pop up frequently and it usually arises when someone wants to establish additional standards for advancement or something like that. Most troops are aware of the many competing programs and try to accomodate boys with those outside activities. Remember, Boy Scouting is also an outside activity...in many respects.

But I am aware of scouters who think attendance must be 100% or else the boy won't qualify as being active enough or showing enough scout spirit, or something along those lines. This unit recognizes the need for accomodation and we are glad whenever boys decide they WANT to attend the meetings and activities. My personal opinion is that if a boy decides he doesn't want to attend, either he simply isn't interested or else the program isn't attractive enough. I try not to put the onus on the boy, but rather on the leadership responsible for the program. IMHO.

Welcome to the forums!

[Lisabob 13]

Well now if someone tried to enforce the 100% attendance rule you mention in our troop, we wouldn't have any scouts at all. Pretty unrealistic if you ask me. And if our troop started demanding "excused absences?" we'd find another troop. I'm not going to start justifying my busy life to a bunch of nosy adults who apparently have nothing better to do than decide what my family's priorities ought to be for us. And neither should my son be expected to do that.

 

If attendance is a problem, maybe these scouters should look to the quality of the program being offered, rather than seeking to punish kids for developing other interests and/or voting with their feet.

[Beavah 205]

Funny - someone just sent this to me this mornin'. If it works for you, great.

 

------

 

A Scout is Courteous

 

Courteous is a funny word. Sometimes when new scouts first say the

Scout Law, they have a hard time with what Courteous means.... that

and Thrifty are always killers. Usually scouts will eventually come

up with "holding the door open for someone" as an example, or maybe

saying "Please."

 

What courteous really means is to treat others as though they are at

least as important as ourselves. We hold doors open for people

instead of just trying to rush through first because trying to rush

through first says "I'm more important than you." It's a selfish

thing. We say "please" and "thank you" because other people are as

important as we are - there is no reason why we should expect them to

give us what we want just because we want it. That's selfish. So we

ask them.

 

One important way of being Courteous is to be respectful of other

people's time. That's especially important when other people are

giving you their time for free. When your Patrol Leader spends his

time making plans for a meeting, or working hard to put together food

for an outing, he's giving his time for free. It's courteous to

honor that gift by saying "thank you" and actually showing up for the

meeting or outing. Or, if you can't, to call ahead and apologize

for not being able to make it.

 

The scouters and the older boys who serve as leaders make a

commitment to be here, to make the meetings and the outings run. It

would really suck if they decided "hey, I'd rather go dancing with my

wife this weekend" and canceled the outing. Honoring their

commitment with a commitment of your own is a form of courtesy. It

says "your schedule is as important as my schedule" and "I'm grateful

for you giving your time, and because you're giving your time I'm

going to do all I can to give mine."

 

And a Scout is Courteous.

 

[eagle90 125]

Lisabob - Great answer! My thoughts exactly!

 

Dale

[SMEagle819 10]

Beavah, your little note on courteous hits the nail on the head. As a matter of fact, I think I will use it for my Scoutmaster's Minute at our next meeting.

 

Yes, I understand that there is other things a young person is doing outside of scouts. Yes, I understand that to ask for 100% participation is ludicrous. However, we as volunteers are giving up some of our free time to create an enjoyable experience for young people to have. Not having enough courtesy to say "I won't be able to attend because of XXXX" is not asking a lot.

 

Also, what happens when you make a troop schedule with outings planned out in advance, and then people don't come because "I wanted to go to a party" or "There's this concert on that day and I'm going to that instead." Should we not make schedules any more since no one seems to be looking at them? By making a schedule in advance, you should be able to plan your "other" events around the schedule, or make it known early enough that you can't attend.

[eisely 13]

I certainly agree that demanding 100% participation is ill advised at a minimum and impossible to attain anyway. As LisaBob points out, many, if not most boys would leave scouting altogether. No troop that I have been associated with had such a requirement.

 

There does remain a serious issue when a relatively inactive scout wants to take on a serious position of responsibility. I believe that a unit is fully within its rights to demand a high level of participation for boys in leadership positions, still short of 100%, but otherwise the unit may fail in many areas of its program. Such expectations need to be set at the front end of a boy assuming a position of responsibility.

 

One way to enforce some discipline regarding outings is to make scouts and their families financially responsible for their fair share of outing costs where a scout has committed to participate and then bails. Allowing scouts to not participate in outings they committed to without penalty also is unfair to those scouts who may have wanted to go on an outing where the total headcount was restricted by wilderness permits and the like.

[Beavah 205]

I certainly agree that demanding 100% participation is ill advised at a minimum and impossible to attain anyway.

 

Yah, I asked Lisabob this in a PM, but maybe I should ask everyone.

 

Do yeh have any kids in sports? In band?

 

What do yeh tell them when they demand (near) 100% participation (usually without settin' the schedule as far in advance as a good scout troop)?

 

Is it really ill advised? Truly impossible?

 

Or is it a choice to value Scouting less? To value volunteers' efforts less than those of paid professionals?

 

Just curious how many would pull their kids out of football rather than deal with a "you must be at every practice" expectation from those nosy coaches who have nothing better to do than decide what our family's priorities should be for us

 

Beavah

 

[Lisabob 13]

Beavah, do you attend 100% of every meeting of every organization you're a member of? (If you tell me you attend every faculty meeting your dept. has ever had, I'm going to have a hard time believing it...) Are there times when one group takes precedent over another? Are there times when you can't get enough of one group and would be involved with them every night of the week, if you could? Are there other times when you're still a member but maybe less active than in the past? Are there times when you set aside one interest for a little while so you can try something new? Maybe you come back to the original group refreshed, for having done that?

 

With the exception of attending 100% of everything, the rest of these are all things adults do (or anyway, the ones I know). And I think it is ok for kids to try new activities while they are still kids, and have the luxury to do that. I am not saying they shouldn't be courteous, and if they know they'll be absent it would be nice for them to give a heads up to the group. Nor am I arguing in favor of over-stretching to the point where they are committed to nothing.

 

I am saying that expecting any one extracurricular activity - even one as wonderful and important as scouting may be - to take over a boy's life is unrealistic and will drive more kids away (adults too!) than it will lure in. I am also saying that when adults in the troop start deciding what an "excused" absence vs. an "unexcused" absence is going to be for my kid, for my family, then they're over-reaching and getting involved in setting other people's priorities. This rarely works out as intended. For me, it would get my hackles up. Who the heck do they think they are...and so on. We can be respectful of the time others put in, but just because an activity or group has become one person's top priority does not mean it will be everyone else's.

 

And I haven't checked my email that PMs go to in a while - sorry if I didn't see your message there.

[Lisabob 13]

"Just curious how many would pull their kids out of football rather than deal with a "you must be at every practice" expectation from those nosy coaches who have nothing better to do than decide what our family's priorities should be for us"

 

To respond to this - my son chose to play rec league soccer instead of travel league soccer for this exact reason - he didn't want to be so tied down that he wouldn't have time to do anything else he enjoyed.

[adanecito 11]

Thanks Everyone,

 

I agree with everyone and it helps to have the backing of parents/Scouters who feel the same way. Most of the people in the leadership have agreed to not expect 100% but to expect 75% to 50% and if a scout does not show up even that much to meet with the Scout to determine if the troop is meeting his needs or if the Scout really has too much going on his life to be able to get the most out of Scouting.

Some good people think in either two colors rather than a rainbow.

 

Regards,

-Tony

[Joni4TA 10]

Here in TX, High School Football is sort of like a secondary religion! Yes, I expect my son to hear from the coach that he needs to make 100% of every single practice and game. If not, the coach has all the latitude in the world to say, "YOU DO NOT GET TO PLAY IN THE GAME IF YOU DON'T SHOW UP 100% FOR EVERY PRACTICE, AND YOU'LL RUN LAPS IF YOU DON"T SHOW UP FOR A GAME!"

 

That would be called a consequence for actions - don't come - don't play or you'll run your rear off. And so my son has a choice to make on the days when he has practice (Monday through Friday) and any game days. My son chose to go on a week-long camping trip during 2-a-days practices at the beginning of the season. As a result, he was put on the B Team, missed Football pictures with the team, and got whatever was left over in the uniform department. But he made his choice.

 

I don't expect Scouting to be so rigid, but if that's what some people want to impose on their Troops, they certainly have the freedom to do so. I would not be a member of that Troop, and neither would my son. It should be noted that there is no BSA policy on attendance. I believe 100% is too strict and unrealistic.

[eolesen 10]

Where I would expect near 100% participation at meetings and activities is from a boy who accepts the challenge of being a PL, ASPL, or SPL. If they're in the position but unable to make time available to actually perform, they need to step back from the position (sounds a lot like a WB exercise...) because they're letting other people down (whether the others realise it or not.

 

For a rank-and-file Scout? You have to talk with the individual involved each time you try to measure whether or not they're committed. That's a good use for a Scoutmaster conference. They're not just for rank advancement...

 

Adults aren't much different... We have several committee chairs who rarely attend committee meetings, much less troop meetings, which leads me to the question of why they're a chair and don't try to step back and be a member at-large.

[BrentAllen 10]

To answer the question, you first have to ask the parents what they want out of Scouting for their son. Why are they putting their son in Scouting.

 

If you hear answers that are based on the Aims and Methods, then you ask, how are you going to achieve those goals if their son doesn't attend? If he isn't at Troop meetings or campouts, how do the parents expect Scouting to work to achieve their goals?

 

We set the expectation of 100% attendance. We don't get 100% but we get pretty close. We let them know they will learn something new at each meeting and outing, and have a lot of fun. If you miss an event, you miss a lot!

 

Our boys play football, basketball, soccer, take martial arts and participate in academic bowls. We let the boys and the parents know the boys have an obligation to their patrol members and the Troop, just as they have an obligation to their team mates on a sports team. Leadership is learned in the patrol, and if the boys don't show up, the lessons aren't going to happen. Constantly forming ad hoc patrols is no way to learn leadership and team building.

 

When we crossed over last March, the Troops we visited typically had somewhere between 40 - 60% attendance. The Troop we joined was closer to 40%, with just over 70 boys on the rolls. I don't think we ever had more than 60% attendance at any meeting. First campout after cross over was the district camporee. The Troop had around 50% attendance, our new boys were 100%. Next campout was a backpacking trip on the Appalachian Trail. Out of 72 boys, 6 attended. This was supposedly a trip selected and scheduled by the Troop - boy run, yeah, right. Since our new boys weren't ready for that type of trip, I set up another trip that same weekend to Chickamauga Battlefield. We had 100% attendance for our new boys.

June camping trip was canceled due to lack of leadership. The Troop did have good attendance at summer camp, where 50 boys participated (100% for our new boys). No trip in August (as well as no meetings). Next trip was funyaks whitewater rafting, limited to 18 boys. They couldn't fill all the spots.

We left to start our own Troop at this point. We have 6 boys, and their attendance at camping trips and meetings has been very good. Going back to the first of April, these are the %'s for attendance at Troop meetings, campouts, service projects and patrol meetings (18 events):

Scout 1 - 100%

Scout 2 - 83%

Scout 3 - 100%

Scout 4 - 78%

Scout 5 - 89%

Scout 6 - 94%

 

If a Scout is going to miss a meeting, he is instructed to call his PL and let him know. If he doesn't, the PL calls him and tells him he was missed and asks him to call next time. If a Scout misses 4 meetings without notifying his PL, I (SM) will call and find out what's going on. (A Scout is Courteous)

If a Scout has a long-term conflict (sports season), he needs to let me know. I have no problem with that, but he will not be able to hold a leadership position while absent. We have the Scribe take attendance at each meeting. When we grow and have multiple patrols, we will use attendance and uniforming as part of an Honor Patrol competition.

 

I realize boys will have other interests - I hope they do. Troops brag that they are very accomodating, but I see it as they have low expectations and don't fully appreciate the Patrol Method. I see Troops with poor attendance mainly due to a low expectation. The boys are not made to feel they have an obligation to the troop and patrol. They are just told to show up when they can or want to. AKA a social camping club.

 

If you don't set a high expectation for attendance, you most likely aren't going to get high attendance.

 

Our goal is to instill in our boys the belief that Scouting is not just something you do one night a week; Scouting is a way of life.

[Venividi 35]

Beavah,

 

Your post is really food for thought. My son was in band and cross country when he was in high school. Never sufficiently good at any of them to participate in the top band or elite runners, but he enjoyed participating in all of them. All had out of school MANDATORY participation in practices and performances. He really bonded with the cross country team members even though he always ran open class, and never ran for team points. He was part of the team. And you had to make a commitment to be part of the team. There is a feeling of comraderie, of feeling of being part of the group, when you know that your participation is valued enough, that you are important enough, that you affect the team if you are not there, so if you don't commit, dont show up.

 

Contrast that with "come when you are able" we will still be here. It is hugely different. I won't say better, just different. They teach different lessons. When I was scoutmaster and talking to parents of visiting Webelos, I would explain that scouting was better at teaching some lessons, and that other activities were better at teaching other lessons. I would specifically point out that I believed sports was better at developing teamwork and commitment for this very reason, and therefore promoted participation in both.

 

There is a difference in that the team sports were for a season rather than running all year, as does scouts. I do like the concept of a troop that values participation sufficiently to reward those that are loyal to their troop and patrol. Though I don't think that there is a large market for such a year round program, though I might be surprised. Perhaps a concept of different levels of troops like there are different levels in sports; i.e., like park district soccer, intramural soccer, high school conference soccer, club soccer, and traveling soccer. Differing levels of the same sport available for the different levels of interest and commitment.

 

I see BSA as positioning boy scouts as recreational level of outdoors adventure, equivalent to park district soccer. There seems to be a hole for an outdoor adventure equivalent level of club sports.

 

Just some random musings here, spawned by this thread, and the excellent question of "How Much Commitment is Enough". Thanks, adanecito for raising it.

 

Beavah, Lisabob,

I will be traveling to your great state of Michigan this weekend to participate in the Grand Rapids marathon. This is an unintended outcome of my son's former participation in cross country. I think that our children influence us as much or more than we influence them.