why is it harder to make changes in a troop than a pack?

[Lisabob]

One of the lessons I've learned along the way is that packs change fairly easily, while troops typically do not. In a pack, all it takes is one or a couple of dynamic, high energy people with a strong desire to improve things, and BAMN! it happens. Not so, in a troop, where sometimes it seems like people are expected to spend years observing and quietly toiling in order to earn the privilege to make the smallest suggestion. Is this a good thing? I'm not entirely sure and I wish for some middle ground. On one hand, pack leadership may change so often that stability can be a problem. On the other hand, troop leadership tends to get so entrenched that some pretty weird "local interpretations" of the program end up becoming "the way we've always done it" and are really hard to combat. In another thread somebody encouraged readers to take the long view and there's something to be said for that, but how long is too long, and how long is reasonable?

[mlg0171]

Well, let me be the first to answer, since you spun it off of me.

 

1) Be sure you know what you are talking about. When you first walk into a troop everything will look different.

 

2) The pace of change will vary based on your interpersonal skills and how much effort you put into it. Leaders are wary of sharpshooting parents who don't have the time to contribute.

 

For the record, I didn't spend "years" toiling before making suggestions. Sorry if I left that impression.

 

Thanks for the spin off.

[Oak Tree]

The topic asks one question, while the post asks other follow-on questions. I think that Lisa partially answers her own (rhetorical?) question asked in the topic. It's harder to make changes because leadership turns over more slowly in a troop. I'll hypothesize a few other reasons as well: the boys themselves are more likely to have a sense of tradition in a troop, whereas Cub Scouts will for the most part just go along with whatever; people are more likely to have some personal stake in the way the troop operates - they view it as part of their identity, while Cub Scout parents are more likely to see themselves as just passing through and are happy to do a leadership position that's just part of being along for the ride.

 

Those are just my thoughts - I have no good way to know if they are right or not. Certainly I've observed the same situation, both in my units and on the forum, that packs are much more amenable to change. Troops generally have way more ASMs than packs have ACMs. In packs many of the leaders are den leaders, whereas in the troop there are a bunch of people who all take some responsibility for the entire unit.

 

I'd say the answer to the final question is, as always, "It depends." Some of it is just practical - how long does it take to understand the situation, know what really needs to be changed, know who the people are who could change things, build enough allies to make a change effective, build up enough personal respect that people think you know what you're talking about. I'd say it can't hurt to ask lots of questions early on, let the leaders know you want to help, give them feedback on how things appear to be affecting your son.

 

In one troop it can take a whole generation of boys before things will really change. In another situation, you might be able to get some incremental changes started quickly.

 

I'd say it can easily take a year before you look like you know what you're talking about. If it looks like it's going to take five years to make a change, then you may have to decide if you want to stick it out that long.

[Its Me]

 

In the troop we just left, the CC, treasurer, and five other Committee members crossed from the same pack. Half the troop was from one webelos pack almost one single den. We could not change a thing. Not the campouts, not the adult lead program not the popcorn money. Nothing! The SM and a few of the old timers stuck together and refused to change. The committee was loaded with high energy and motivated parents. The old SM wasn't going to change so we left.

 

One can change a policy and a program but you can't change an individual. So when the program and the individual are one in the same, change cannot happen.

 

 

 

 

[SemperParatus]

I'm a big believer in term limits. I think 3-4 years in the key positions of COR, CC and SM is plenty to make an impact. That could break the cycle of entrenchment and give more volunteers a chance to carry the torch of leadership.

 

 

[Beavah]

Yah, I think another reason is that the level of training and experience in a troop is much higher than in a pack.

 

* It's a different thing to take a bunch of kids out into the wilderness than it is to do den meetings indoors and an occasional car-based family camp.

* It's a different thing to be responsible for kids when their parents aren't around than when their parents are required to be present.

* Budgets for troop involve a lot more money and cash flow than for a pack.

* Youth leadership is a much harder thing to build than putting together a meeting yourself.

* Equipment is much more extensive (and potentially more hazardous).

 

So the result is that da current leaders in a troop have a lot more personal skill and experience, and have to be a lot more personally invested in being responsible for troop operations. Big dollars and real safety on the line. It's a much bigger, more complex operation. So folks also have to stay around longer in positions.

 

In short, it's just like da transition from elementary school into middle school and high school. Sports go from being parent-run "rec" sports to professionally coached high school teams. Teachers go from one generalist to a team of specialists teaching different subjects. PTO's go from being very involved in elementary school to being much less involved in high school, because it's a bigger, more complex, more expensive operation.

 

Pretty natural, overall. Would you trust your kid on a high adventure trip in da wilderness with a guy who'd never done it before? How about a weekend trip?

 

And I wonder... how much say does a new parent get in their son's high school chemistry course or the band program or the football team? Why should we expect Scouting to change for new folks if nobody else does? It's an optional program that you choose to sign up for, eh? Not that you necessarily get to run.

 

Yah, sure, it can get "entrenched". But more often than not that's a good thing - while not perfect, "entrenched" is pretty good. Da best troops in most districts are the ones with long-term, dedicated, experienced Scoutmasters.

 

Not sure why anybody would want to make 'em less stable with term limits. Usually turnover causes all kinds of problems and conflicts. As long as the leaders are still havin' fun and still giving their time freely, let 'em stay! That experience is invaluable.

 

Beavah

 

[Beavah]

I should add that one of da interestin' things to watch if yeh stay in a district long enough is troops that have a big batch of new folks come through determined to be "reformers." They see all the "errors" of the "older timers" eh?

 

Lots of conflict, maybe the old timers move on, or maybe the new folks start to understand the issues better, or maybe some changes happen at a more reasonable pace. It becomes more comfortable for the new folks. Those new folks start becomin' old folks. They make their own errors of course, but "that's the way we do things." The troop that used to be great at youth leadership but lousy at communication now becomes great at communication but weak on youth leadership. Their kids get older, and their emphasis shifts.

 

Pretty soon, a batch of new folks comes in an starts pointing out all the "errors" of the old timers. And then the cycle of judgments and mistakes and learnin' continues - unless the conflict gets heated enough that da troop just folds.

 

Human nature, eh?

 

Beavah

 

[AvidSM]

As a Scoutmaster, I have noticed that the majority of new parents have no idea how a troop operates. The one's that go camping have a lot of suggestions, most of which go against the priciples of the patrol method and boy run. I nicely tell them that and they seem to slowly get the idea.

 

I have also noticed that the boys do not like change, especially the older ones. Oak Tree mentioned this in his post and I agree with him. The change has to make sense to the boys or they won't agree to it. Part of my job as SM is to keep a running dialog with the boys about the problems we have and the avialable options to fix them.

 

I'd listen to a parent or an ASM if they have time in the program and see things how they are. If they were in scouting as a youth or possibly an eagle scout, you sometimes get mixed advice. Some want to take the troop back to where scouting was in the 60's and 70's. I tell them that's not the way we do it anymore.

[eolesen]

Cubs is a five year program, and Boys can be up to seven. So, right off the bat you have parents who stick around longer while their boys are in the program. Plus, my perception is that you have more adults stick around Boys after their kids are thru thru the program than you see returning to work with Cubs.

 

With Cubs, the parents bear all of the responsibility, so there's so much to be done that some people just don't notice change happening. Plus, more than half of the program in our unit appears to be executed via the Den Leaders, who have a lot more autonomy than an ASM would.

 

With Boys, the responsibility for executing the program is shared, with the boys having the lion's share if your unit is functioning correctly. What little territory the parents are left with tends to be protected a little more ferociously.

[eisely]

All of the observations posted above are correct. It is harder to change a troop, but that may not be a bad thing. Clearly the slower rate of turnover of adult leadership is a factor. People become heavily invested in the current way of doing things and are reluctant to change for a variety of reasons. Another factor is that the BSA program at the boy scout level is much more complex than the cub program. Advancement is much more serious and up to the boy. Outdoor programs are obviously much more serious requiring competent trained adult leadership. The fact that the boys are supposed to lead rather than just absorb is big big difference. One of the best immersion training syllabi available for new parents in a troop who do not want to be ASMs is the Troop Committee Challenge syllabus. It can be quite an eye opener for new parents, even if they do not take up an active role on the committee.

[anarchist]

After 12 years working with a troop, 16 with a pack and having taken hand in a slow take over of the troop program I can say it is hard work that is not done over night. And if the program has any portion of "boy led" operating; the boys can be the greatest hurdle to overcome...Strange as it may seem; the boys themselves can be the single largest barrier to change..."we have always do it this way" means a lot to boys...Change can be seen by boys as very unsettling.

 

Of course, Adults can be real pains too! But over the years I have seen a lot of newbie "suggestors" -who when asked to take their "helpful suggestion" and "make it so" (our troop practice is if you want something to happen- you had better be willing to roll up your sleeves and do the grunt work)...these folks generally have run for the hills. Maybe not at first, but most have over-time left or stopped coming to meetings...

 

It is easy to say "do it this way" and walk away 'cause you don't have time...or job commitments, or sports etc., but it gets harder when you have organizational rules to follow,a C.O. to answer to, numberous personalities to deal with, and 40-60 boys to convince that your change is a "good thing".

 

Many newbies do not understand realities of current BSA risk management...as in ; "what do you mean I can't let my 12 year old operate the ski boat with two young scouts in tow he does it all the time with the family"...or "who says my son can't go on the white water canoe trip if he has not passed his swimmers test?" or "who made the stupid rule that my 11 year old can't go caving with you?".

 

Some want to change troops into merit badge/eagle mills cause their sons would advance "so much faster" if every thing was taught in large group/troop meetings every Monday night and then get mad when they get no support.

 

Some newbies ( and I use the term with the utmost of love and kindness)just want to hijack the boy led chaos and have every scout sit on their hands, be quiet and play nice...do the shopping, set the camp for the boys...(as in third year webelos) but you name the issue and we have seen most of them...

 

Most parents (note parents here) after choosing the troop program for whatever reasons fail to appreciate that in most stable (dare I say even successful)programs the "current troop family" has found something that "more or less works" and as we all learned in high school physics (or on jepardy) inertia means stationary stuff takes more energy to get rolling...and sometimes you just have to "pay your dues to play".

 

How long before you are listened to? guess that depends, maybe never...Experience has shown me that many suggestions are made in the wrong venue or at the wrong time, some with the wrong tone of voice or mannerism, many are made "off the cuff" and appear to the "oldies" as just "flinging stuff against the wall to see what sticks"...To often the "suggestors" just toss out ideas that have been heard by the "oldies" before, maybe even tried but that didn't work or were not interesting to the boys and so not supported by the boys (PLC). We had a discussion recently about a 3rd year parent telling the SM what was wrong with the advancemnt policy in our troop. In that talk with our CC, the comment was made that this parent has not lifted a finger in three years to help and has no credibility with the folks on the program side so why should anyone on the committee listen to him tell them how it should be done?!

 

Entrenched leadership? "term limits"? -interesting thoughts...but frankly I have seen more troops go through serious even existential problems just after adult leader turnover/change outs because the newbies didn't have the legs (staying power) or knowledge or skill to see "it" through. I have seen older boys drop out of scouting when the SM they all love leaves cause he is just "burnt out" and no new guys can measure up.

 

Let alone when a troop finds a SM with several scout (sequenced) aged children who is just great with the kids and the program (and willing)...you tell that person to step down???

 

And as Beav says...would you want your son following a guy on a wilderness trip...who had never done it before? And frankly as one of the oldest adult leaders in the troop; it is really funny to hear a 4th or 5th year dad called part of the old boys network or one of the good ol boys...when four years ago he was a newbie railing at the entrenched leadership...

my two cents

anarchist

[Eagledad]

Hi Lisabob

 

Everyone has given good information. My perspective from the District point of view is training can help you get the middle of the road you are thinking about.

 

Of course there are the obvious differences between packs and troops. The big one being that an adult can completely change the mood, direction and dynamics of a pack without really affecting the dens because the den programs are basically mini programs that run independent of the pack leadership. Troops are called boy run, but just about all parts of the troop program are intertwined together, so you cant just change a few adults without it affecting most everything else.

 

On with the training. In writing this, I started giving examples and the reply was getting long. So instead I will attempt to make the point without examples.

 

A good way of getting more consistent performance from different units is train them all with the same information. In this case, you need to first get everyone trained to your districts expectations of unit performance. So go the extra distance to train each unit and make sure the training materials include things like Each adult leader should recruit an assistant just incase the leader has to leave the position. The training can be difficult because you will find that some units will refuse, so you need to go to the unit to do the training. But, the important part here is teaching the idea, encouraging it from time to time and even rewarding the unit for it. You might come up with a District Quality Unit award with a really cool patch where one of the requirements is 80% of leaders have an assistant.

 

Sound hard? Well it may be a bit laborious to introduce, but I think you will find that most adults kind of except it if done with the goodness of there unit in mind. I rarely had units not want to improve their program.

 

Other things you can add that helped us are "Recruiting Training". Around

August and September, I spent a lot of time teaching adults how to recruit, so I created a district course four weeks before school started to help packs feel more comfortable about recruiting. While the leaders liked learning how to get more boys, I was surprised to find they were very interested in how to recruit more adults. Also while I had the captive audience, I also spent some time giving the adults ideas of how to plan better yearly agendas and how to provide a simpler but more fun program and how to make the program easier for the adults. We read a lot of these ideas here on Scouter.com, but in reality, very few adults read scouting forums. This is mostly on the cubs side of course, but Im sure you could make it work for troops.

 

See I find that not that many units really have a big picture of their program. They are just going from one month to the next, especially packs. when you give ideas that simplify their lives, they take everything you offer and ask for more. Our district improved our cub recruiting 20% after that training and we got far fewer calls about adult recruiting.

 

Im just thinking off the top of my head of past experiences where we wanted to change units habits and I could go on and on, but does the idea of training adults to more middle of the road habits make sense to you?

 

Barry

 

[Its Me]

 

 

A lot of words were writen in this post to defend the status quo. The blind assumption is that the old scoutmaster is doing it right and the newbies just need to get overthemselves.

 

Maybe.

 

But my experince, as the newbie, was that the old scoutmaster wasn't doing it right and is was painfully obvious to anyone who read the handbook. It didn't matter how motivated, inspired the boys and the adults were to redirect the program, things weren't going to change. It could be Eagle sendrom by the parents and the older scouts, get half way through Star or already have Life and all you want to do is coast into Eagle.

 

 

 

[Beavah]

Nah, Its Me... we were just respondin' as to why it's hard to change the status quo in a troop.... which really ain't that different from any organization. I'd even add the additional difficulty that like most organizations, boys and parents actually choose a troop (and choose whether to stay). So da folks who are in a troop for any length of time are very likely to be ones who support what's goin' on.

 

Cub Packs are different, because folks mostly just join the pack at their local school rather than goin' looking for the "best" pack for them.

 

I think all of us recognize that there are a few old, burned out, long-time SM's out there who are well past where they should have retired. I think all of us recognize that there are quite a few advancement mills and other adult-run programs out there (which unfortunately attract a lot of families who like that sort of thing). I expect all of us have also seen our share of nitpicking newbies who come in and disrupt fine programs by pointing out all da things they think are "wrong" based on readin' the handbook or havin' a day of training. More than 3/4 of those newbies push actively for "Webelos III" and complain about da unorganized "old guard" that won't let 'em take over positions and "run things right."

 

And sometimes, personalities and egos just clash, and da disputes really have nuthin' to do with "program" though they sound like it.

 

It all goes on. Which is happenin' in any given case only local folks can really figure out by goin' to watch and knowin' all the players. Dat's why it's best to be circumspect when commenting from afar.

 

Beavah

 

[Chippewa29]

As someone previously stated, a Cub pack tends to be more "fluid" in their membership, with no one thats been around for a long time (more than a few years). Scout troops, on the other hand, have some people that may have been around forever.

 

If you want to change something, it does take time and very good interpersonal skills. An excellent book on dealing with this is "The 21 Irrefutable Laws of Leadership" by John Maxwell. There are a couple of chapters where he specifically address the issue of making change within an organization.

 

I used this book to help transition my troop when I became SM. Although I had been with the troop since I was a youth, for the first half of the previous decade, I had been off to college and the second half, a part time leader. The SM had developed an iron grip on control of the troop during that time. Although he asked me to take the job, he wanted me to run the troop just like he did. As I tried to make changes, he would block things. At the time, he and his wife still did a ton of work for the troop, so I couldn't ask them to leave.

 

However, over the next couple of years, I built recruited new people, built relationships with the Scouts and adults, and developed a support base around my vision for the troop. About two years after I became SM, I got tired of dealing with this guy. The difference was that pretty much everyone in the troop was recruited by me and we had a lot more adult support. The role of the former SM and his wife had diminished. When I made a move for a big change, the former SM protested. His cries fell on deaf ears and he left the troop.