If BP had started scouting in 2006, what would it look like?

[Kudu]

OldGreyEagle writes:

 

So, maybe a week long outdoor skills course is needed,

 

Yes, and we could award those who complete the course a special badge made from one wooden bead and a strip of leather :-)

 

what would you suggest as core skills?

 

The skills that you and red feather list are all consistent with Baden-Powell's version of a week long "practical" (one bead) Wood Badge course. Because the biggest difference between BSA Scouting and B-P's version of Scouting is the required "Expeditions" or "Journeys" at every step of advancement, I would also include canoeing and modern backpacking skills (such as fitting a backpack).

 

A week is probably just enough time for adult leaders to get a brief introduction to all of these skills so that they know what they don't know about each subject. Of course the most important thing that a Scouter should take away from Wood Badge is the experience of learning these outdoor skills while working in a Patrol in the great outdoors. A Scouter's primary job should be teaching Patrol Leaders how to be Patrol Leaders.

 

mtm25653 writes:

 

We also learned a lot about leadership. Isn't that one of the things we are trying to develop in our scouts?

 

I think the BSA sold its soul in 1972 when it removed "Leadership" from its traditional place as a subset of the Patrol Method, and turned it into one of the "Seven Methods of Scouting." This included new leadership requirements for advancement and the dismemberment of Patrol Leader Training (in which the Scoutmaster teaches Patrol Leaders how to run Patrol Meetings by holding actual Patrol Leader Patrol Meetings. The Scoutmaster teaches Patrol Leaders how to conduct Patrol Hikes by helping them organize an actual Patrol Leader Training Patrol Hike. The Scoutmaster teaches Patrol Leaders how to organize Patrol Campouts by having the Patrol Leaders organize an actual Patrol Leader Training Patrol Campout). In 1972 the BSA decided that these specific skills were not important and replaced them with so-called "Leadership Skills" so that everybody can be a leader, in much the same way that the BSA neutered Boy Scout specific Wood Badge to make room for Cub Scout leaders.

 

I'm just saying that if Baden-Powell started an alternative Scouting program in 2006, it might teach Patrol Leaders how to be Patrol Leaders. If your son the Troop Guide wants to attend then fine, but what he is going to learn is how to run a Patrol.

 

* to learn to be men from good men (I can't teach them to be men)

 

I'm glad you brought that up. Some post-feminist writers such as Michael Gurian write that what 21st century boys need most is an environment in which boys can learn how to be men from men. One approach is that of the Baden-Powell Scout Association (BPSA-USA) in which every sponsoring organization sets up two separate Troops: A Troop for boys run by men, and a Troop for girls run by women. As to what extent the two Troops (and their adult leadership) are integrated depends on the goals and human resources of each individual sponsoring organization.

 

Beavah writes:

 

Forget Kims Game, da problem solving and memorization in World of Warcraft is the standard.

 

I agree, but the advantage of Kim's Game is that it does not require any high-tech toys to play. No matter what you do in life, from special forces to corporate bean counter, the ability to focus the human mind is necessary for success. The theory of Kim's Game is that if you deliberately practice this ability to focus the mind, you can develop the ability to observe your environment and recall details later.

 

Perhaps the 2006 equivalent to Kim's Game is popping a Ritalin :-)

 

Kudu

 

[Gonzo1]

At the risk of taking some arrows from some of our female colleagues, I must agree with some of the posters here like Kudu. While women have been scoutmasters since 1988, that doesn't necessarily make it right. Women are probably best at the cub level, troop commitee and some sort of venture participation. Sorry, I don't know alot about venture, I know it's co-ed).

 

I also realize that in this day and age, there are many songle moms who want to participate with their kids. Troop committee is a great way. Sometimes, boys need to be with men, and girls need to be with women.

 

Ladies, how would you feel if a bunch of men wanted to be girl scout troop leaders? Or attend all the girl scout leader training. Would you really send your daughters on a campout with a bunch of men?

 

I think Wood Badge probably has been watered down. When I attended, it was for advanced scoutmaster (adult leader) training. The pinnacle of adult BSA training should (IMO) be something that one looks forward to, not take in your first or second year of scouting. Get some experience FIRST, have an idea and a clue. Some of the BSA program has been watered down. Merit badge requirements changing, rank requirements changing.

 

I wish we could return to the BSA of the 1970's. The old uniforms were better, the scouts did a ton of things outdoors, it was just plain FUN.

 

[OldGreyEagle]

Interesting thoughts Kudu and I sorta kinda knew about the one week one bead program, but I have a few questions/points that I would like your ideas on.

 

One of the reasons, as I understand it, that Wood Badge was changed (neutered tends to be inflammatory, but that's your call)was because of the distinctly "cliqueish" quality that grew up around it. Those who has completed Wood Badge oft thought of themselves as the only real "scouters" that was possible and were not shy to boast of how they were so much better than the rest of the poor shrubs working to better the program. Wood Badge was changed because numbers of adequate trainers for the Cub Scout Wood Badge was dwindling and there was a real need to provide training beyond the introduction courses to non-scoutmastering types so Wood Badge for the 21rst Century was devised. Maybe that was an error on BSA part, to "steal" the name Wood Badge, but it was done to end the idea that the BSA was run by an almost secretive group (WB graduates) who distrusted any outsider and felt only they should be entrusted with the responsibility of running the program. Back when I first started with my son, you had to be "invited" to attend Wood Badge and such inviations were rumored only to be dealt to the most talented and scouting spirited around. I hope that perception is different now, at least so I hope.

 

But that doesnt help with the training issue. I think its a lot of fun to split a cord of wood. Most scouts wouldnt have any idea how much a cord is, or what it is for that matter. When I talk about backwood skills I dont mean GPS, I mean map reading. When it comes to cooking, not using a backpacking stove, but an open fire, started with squaw wood and we dont worry about LNT, well, we do worry about it, but please let me use squaw wood. Stalking is not about that unfortunate incident I had outside Eva Longoria's residence

and more about following a deer to its bedding site. I would love to see a more advanced outdoor skills class, but I wonder if such classes could be staffed nationally by volunteers and not because of the wimplification of the BSA, more like the wimplification of Western society.

[OldGreyEagle]

Sorry Gonzo, the only good thing about the 70's and scouting was the red beret otherwise it marked the end of scouting as an Outdoor program and became more urban, numbers dropped and changes were made and rather quickly, even for BSA national. Wonder what Brian would have thought had the internet been around in the 70? What would be the changes then? Stacked leather high heeled hiking boots? A troop lava lamp? Scoutmaster's being mandated to have perms? An updated uniform based on the leisure suit? the mind reels...

[msnowman]

Gonzo - I agree - Scoutmasters should be men. I don't know jack about being a man. I can help Nephew learn how to be a good Person, but not specifically a good Man...that's why I have declined to become an ASM w/ his Troop (though I am finally on the hook as a MC).

 

Last time I checked the GSA site, adult males could be leaders, there but also has to be an adult female leader. If you are going to allow coed leaders, that seems like a reasonable solution. I have always found it odd that BSA allows just female leaders on a BOY scout overnighter....I asked Nephew "If you fell across a log and hurt your preciousness would you rather go to XX Female Leader or XY Male Leader?" Without a second hesitation his answer was XY SPL, with XY Male Leader as second choice...going to XX Female Leader came a distant fourth....after suffering on his on.

 

I also agree w/ Kudu (though I still take exception to the choice of phrasing about Yellow Shirts) that if you aren't an outdoor person (male or female) stay out of the dang outdoor program. Training needs for Boy Scout Scouters and Cub Scout Scouters seem to be quite different...perhaps instead of watering down the program to fit both there should have been a seperate program for each level. After all, SM training isn't the same as CM training. Webelos Leader Outdoor Training is different from SM training.

 

YiS

Michelle

[emb021]

"Sorry, I don't know alot about venture, I know it's co-ed."

 

Then you don't know anything about venture, because its not co-ed. That's because Venture is a program within Boy Scout Troops. Its the Venture Patrol, for older boys.

 

Venturing, however, is the BSA's co-ed program for youth 14-21. Many (but not all) Venturing Crews are outdoor crews, and do a lot of camping and high adventure activities. So there are many female Venturers and female Venturing adults who are avid outdoors people. There are a few that could run circles around some Eagle Scouts. I find many girls who are wanting a real scouting experience (ie camping, outdoors, etc) and not finding it in Girl Scouts are coming over to Venturing to find it. Same is true of many adult females.

 

I have to disagree with Kudu. While, yes, not every woman is suitable to being a Boy Scout Troop leader, my experience is that those who have stepped up to being Scoutmasters or Assistants are quite suited to it.

 

 

 

 

[BrentAllen]

So, Kudu, how many "final straws" do you have? Are you still letting your boys participate in such a wimpy BSA program? Or have you moved them over to the "real" B-P Scouts? With such harsh words about the BSA, I can't believe you would let the young men under your leadership hang out with such a bunch of momma's boys.

 

I'm amazed at your ability to spot the "outdoors type" just from the uniform Scouters are wearing. Last time I checked, yellow blouses were an approved uniform for female Cub Scout leaders. I didn't realize they were limited only to women who were not the "outdoors type." Thanks for the clarification. Is there an IQ level requirement to wear them as well, so that the "dumbed down" Wood Badge training won't go over their heads?

 

Don't worry about our Scouting programs here in Dunwoody - we are doing just fine. Down here, this is a Kudu - http://www.mindspring.com/~iballen/BKudu.JPG - not some pompous Scouter on an ego trip.

[Gonzo1]

OGE

You said... Sorry Gonzo, the only good thing about the 70's and scouting was the red beret otherwise it marked the end of scouting as an Outdoor program.

Gotta disagree here. I joined scouting in the early 70's and we had a very active outdoor program. Besides, I never like the red beret. I don't care much for today's hat with the big red panel either.

 

emb021

you said: Then you don't know anything about venture, because its not co-ed. That's because Venture is a program within Boy Scout Troops. Its the Venture Patrol, for older boys.

I think you're splitting hairs over semantics, of course venture patrols are boy scout patrols and venture crews are co-ed. I know they must have co-ed adult presence. I've never been in one, so I don't know crew operations, advancement (specific to venture crew) etc.

 

msnowman,

I'm glad (I hope) you weren't offended. It's not my objective to offend anyone, not even brianbuf. There are many great and meaningful ways women can serve BSA programs. Here's an example or two. When I attended WB in 1994, we had 2 women in our patrol. 1 had a family emergency and couldn't finish, could have happend to anyone. The other held her own, a nice lady, school teacher. When we took our 2 or 3 mile 'backpacking' trip away from the campsite, about a half mile into it, she changed her socks and tied them to her pack. I asked her what she was doing and she said that her brother told her to tie her socks to the outside of her back, it would make her 'look credible' and look like she knew what she was doing (that of course meant she didn't). I laughed. Another lady in a different patrol didn't what which end of an axe to use to split a log and make a tent peg, BTW, some of the men didn't have a clue either.......... On the other hand, our past district committee chairman was a woman.Very knowledgable about BSA. I once had a DE who was a woman, very knowledge about rules and regulations, not the outdoors.

 

 

 

 

[emb021]

"emb021

"Then you don't know anything about venture, because its not co-ed. That's because Venture is a program within Boy Scout Troops. Its the Venture Patrol, for older boys.

Gonzo:

I think you're splitting hairs over semantics, of course venture patrols are boy scout patrols and venture crews are co-ed. I know they must have co-ed adult presence. I've never been in one, so I don't know crew operations, advancement (specific to venture crew) etc."

 

I am not splitting hairs about semantics. You are confusing the names of two different programs with different (but similiar) names.

 

Venture and Venturing are not interchangable terms.

 

Venture is a boy scout program. (the venture patrol)

 

VenturING is a separate program for youth 14-21. There is NO SUCH THING as a "Venture Crew". It is a Venturing Crew.

 

This confusing of terms causes those of us in Venturing a lot of problems. We have people thinking that a 'Venture patrol' is just "venturing in a troop", and leads to nonsense like Venture Patrol members wearing the forest green Venturing uniform and thinking they can earn Venturing awards.

 

 

 

[Kudu]

OldGreyEagle writes:

 

One of the reasons, as I understand it, that Wood Badge was changed (neutered tends to be inflammatory, but that's your call) was because of the distinctly "cliqueish" quality that grew up around it.

 

You know what they say, OGE, "It is impossible to make anything foolproof because fools are so ingenious!" I don't see how turning outdoor Wood Badge into a hothouse indoor theory course attracts a better kind of Scouter.

 

Wood Badge was changed because numbers of adequate trainers for the Cub Scout Wood Badge was dwindling and there was a real need to provide training beyond the introduction courses to non-scoutmastering types so Wood Badge for the 21rst Century was devised.

 

Well if that is true then it is the very definition of "dumbing down." The number of Cub Scouts is much higher than the number of Boy Scouts, if their parents don't go to training in significant numbers why should the Boy Scout program be brought down to their level?

 

I'm not familiar with the BSA Cub program, but perhaps part of the problem is that the BSA has gutted the Cub outdoor program in the same way that they removed Expeditions from every stage of the core Boy Scout advancement program. If Baden-Powell started an alternative Cub program in 2006, he would require a minimum 14 nights of camping (usually in cabins), 12 day hikes, and 6 night hikes. How does this compare with the BSA Cub program?

 

I would love to see a more advanced outdoor skills class, but I wonder if such classes could be staffed nationally by volunteers and not because of the wimplification of the BSA, more like the wimplification of Western society.

 

One of the problems with living under a Scouting monopoly is that without the benefit of a free marketplace, people tend to believe that BSA Wood Badge is the result of some kind of inevitable march of "progress" from "20th century" outdoor skills to "21st century" indoor skills.

 

I was the course director of my Council's Introduction to Outdoor Skills course for the first three years it was offered and I never had a problem finding high adventure staff. On the other hand, when the Scouts in our Troop go through phases of voting against high adventure camping in favor of parking lot campouts, those non-parent adult volunteers who are into backpacking, canoeing, etc. tend to leave to join Venturing Crews.

 

There could be any number of reasons why people who work in an office all day long are more comfortable attending or staffing an indoor "leadership" course. Perhaps Western society is more "wimpy" as you say, but on the other hand in the same culture there is a corresponding rise in wilderness adventure. Perhaps this market would not support BSA professional salaries and retirement benefits, but Baden-Powell believed that Scouting should be an all-volunteer movement.

 

Again, all I am saying is that if B-P started an alternative to the BSA in 2006, he might go for a niche market of youth interested in his own Traditional Scouting "extreme" outdoor program rather than compete with the BSA for a market share of the "Parlour Scouting" youth culture.

 

Kudu

 

[Gonzo1]

emb021

I think you are indeed splitting hairs in this context, but I'll clarify AGAIN.

Where I said "Women are probably best at the cub level, troop commitee and some sort of venture participation. Sorry, I don't know alot about venture, I know it's co-ed)." Is because I know that venture PATROLS are in boy scout troops and that venturing crews are separately charterd organizations that are co-ed and have co-ed adult advisors. I didn't mean to confues anyone about anything. I know that boys in venturing crews who are also boy scout can earn awards for both, but girls can only earn awards in venturing. No offense intended.

 

 

 

emb021

"Then you don't know anything about venture, because its not co-ed. That's because Venture is a program within Boy Scout Troops. Its the Venture Patrol, for older boys.

Gonzo:

I think you're splitting hairs over semantics, of course venture patrols are boy scout patrols and venture crews are co-ed. I know they must have co-ed adult presence. I've never been in one, so I don't know crew operations, advancement (specific to venture crew) etc."

 

I am not splitting hairs about semantics. You are confusing the names of two different programs with different (but similiar) names.

 

Venture and Venturing are not interchangable terms.

 

Venture is a boy scout program. (the venture patrol)

 

VenturING is a separate program for youth 14-21. There is NO SUCH THING as a "Venture Crew". It is a Venturing Crew.

 

This confusing of terms causes those of us in Venturing a lot of problems. We have people thinking that a 'Venture patrol' is just "venturing in a troop", and leads to nonsense like Venture Patrol members wearing the forest green Venturing uniform and thinking they can earn Venturing awards.

 

 

[Kudu]

BrentAllen writes:

 

Down here, this is a Kudu - http://www.mindspring.com/~iballen/BKudu.JPG - not some pompous Scouter on an ego trip.

 

A threatening photograph of a dead Kudu, and the usual BrentAllen personal insults.

 

The Scouter.Com moderators should be ashamed of themselves! Turning a blind eye to this kind of unScoutlike behavior invites replies in kind and the subsequent level of discourse found on rec.scouting.issues.

 

Kudu

 

[BrentAllen]

To borrow a line from you...

 

"Your Politically Correct righteous indignation is just too funny for words :-/"

 

You also write... "The Scouter.Com moderators should be ashamed of themselves! Turning a blind eye to this kind of unScoutlike behavior invites replies in kind and the subsequent level of discourse found on rec.scouting.issues."

Funny - that is how I felt about your derogatory, sexist comment about "yellow blouses." Have you seen any of them go crying to the moderators?

 

I happen to be very proud of that Kudu. It was a hunt I will never forget. No threat implied; I just feel you and your chauvenistic attitude are giving Kudus a bad name.

[Crew21_Adv]

Fellow Scouters,

 

Greetings!

 

Just to clarify...

 

Many of our posters to this forum continue to state that Venturing is the co-ed program.

 

This is partially true.

 

I am currently away from my Venturing Leaders Guide handbook, but this excerpt below is from the scouting.org Language of Scouting.

 

quote The membership policy of a Venturing crew is determined by the organization chartering the crew. The organization may determine whether its crew is to be coed, all male, or all female. (The majority of crews are coed.) It is recommended that coed crews have male and female adult leaders. endquote

 

Just as the Venturing program is confusing to some of our Scouters. Equally some of our Chartering Organizations would prefer all male or all female crews/ships.

 

I hope this clears up another fallacy of the mysterious Venturing program.

 

Scouting Forever and Venture On!

Crew21 Adv

[OneHour]

It amazes me that we allow ourselves to forget the principles that we try to teach our scouts ... Let's practice what we preach (the old fashion boyscout way) ...

 

A scout is ...

 

trustworthy

loyal

helpful

friendly

courteous

kind

obedience

cheerful

thrifty

brave

clean

reverent

 

The way that this thread is heading ... we may only be able to salvage loyal, obedience, thrifty, and possibly reverent.

 

... ahhhh, I have been trying not to put my 2 cents in, but this thread has the essence of the problem with starting scouting in 2006.

 

Let's call a truce and get back to scouting and the old but wonderful scout oath, law, motto, and slogan that we all come to love and know.

 

Let's get back to that 1 hour a week that we _____ so much!

 

 

YIS

 

1Hour(This message has been edited by OneHour)