blazer63 Posted September 13, 2006 Share Posted September 13, 2006 I have looked through the forums and have not seen a topic that refers to this issue so I decided to create a new one. I am the Scoutmaster of a troop that had 16 boys in it when i took over 3 years ago. Last year we grew to 22 boys and this year jumped up to 35 boys. I have been contacted by various Webelo Den leaders in the area who are suggesting to me that their boys want to join the troop when crossover time comes in Feb(which I realize is a few months away and boys do change their mind). At last count there were 18 boys interested in joining the troop at that time, plus we picked up 4 new boys at our meeting last week. My concern is that the troop is growing way to fast and I will not be able to keep up with it. While I would never turn a boy away from the Scouting program and am pleased with the vote of confidence in our troop, the logistical problems alone are enough to keep my head spinning. My question is has anyone out there experienced this issue(I am sure that someone on this forum has) and if so how did you handle it. I have talked with the various other Scoutmasters and Assistant Scoutmasters in town (there are 3 other Troops) and they are not experiencing this type of growth. Should I be sending them some of these Scouts? I am getting a bit overwhelmed with the idea of having 40-50 boys in the troop. I have a good group of assistants but we have talked about this issue and none of us is looking forward to running this big a troop. Are we in the wrong position? Any assistance/information that anyone can offer to me would be greatly appreciated! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Beavah Posted September 13, 2006 Share Posted September 13, 2006 Congratulations, blazer, on runnin' an exciting program which is attracting boys! Most troops tend to grow to their natural overcapacity. They reach a size where the adults and boys can't provide good service/mentoring anymore, and then they lose boys until they hit their natural "barely sustainable" number. If a DE does a great job steerin' a bunch of extra webelo recruits to the troop with the natural size of 15, in a year they'll be back to 15. I've never been fond of this, because it loses kids to scoutin'. I think it's OK for yeh to tap the brakes. I'd do it just by coolin' your recruiting this year, rather than limiting numbers, but in the end I think it's also OK to limit numbers in some way that's kind, and flexible enough to deal with friends & siblings. Take a couple years to get used to working with a troop of 35-40, and have a sense for how you can do a great job for some boys, rather than a lousy job for many. Da next step up above 50 boys requires you to start to really change how you do things; you have to start addin' more institutional structure - more ASPL's, more ASMs as "middle management" or "program area SM". You as SM won't "know" every kid as well. PLC's and JLT's get big. It gets hard to find places to camp, and hard to do some activities as a whole troop. So before you choose to take that step, slow up and see how it feels at your current size, with just a small amount of creepin' up. But DO be sure to add a critical mass of new boys every year. Your older boys need them, and you'll need them to be old boys down the road. Try to avoid "dry years" even as you avoid monsoons. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Eagledad Posted September 14, 2006 Share Posted September 14, 2006 Me, Me, I've been in almost the exact same place except we went from 16 to 35 the first year and 25 more the next. You are in a very challenging place and that you are asking about it shows how you are trying to get ahead of the game. I think beavah gave great advice you need to use, but it doesn't apply to the first six months of your next new group. Lets face it, your program is going to change. It has to just to keep up with the numbers. So start pow wowing with the adults and prepare for it. We were not prepared and lost 50% of our new scouts in four months. We just weren't ready for all the news scouts running around asking lots of questions and wanting to do scouting stuff now. We weren't ready to get in our minds to help the PLC and adult control and communicate with that many boys. We are very boy run, so it just overwhelmed us. It looks like you are the way we were and your troop is young, so youth leadership is still getting their feet under them as well. Make sure your meeting place can handle at least 80 scouts or so. You may try to limit your program, but I would suggest yo u instead prepare for continued success. Make sure you can handle at least six to eight patrol corners. Get a system going for drivers for campouts. Don't over react and go out and get the biggest trailer in town, instead get rid of the patrol boxes and start using plastic tubs. We actually use milk crates. But get your gear to a size for a small trialer with the idea that the cars can carry gear as well. Big trailers require big cars that you may or may not have, but you will need the cars to haul boys, might as well carry some gear. If you must have trailers, we learned from another large troop to by several small ones so you can add or takeaway as the size requires. Get trailers that minivans can pull, no larger. Get a good adult in charge of camping logistics. First thing that person does is recruit at least one adult for each month to help arrange the campout and collect the money at each meeting. You must recruit this help because it will be a lot for one person. I believe our Camping Chairman, and I was it for a while, is the hardest working adult in the troop. Get three months ahead on planning because some places can't accept large groups and the sooner you know, the sooner the PLC can change plans. You will have a lot of cars going to camp now and we learned a lot. Do not caravan because most wrecks happen in caravans. Give every driver a map and an expected time of arrival to camp. We found if one car follows another and they get seperated, it may take hours to sort it out. Just a map and send them on their way. All our cars showed up with in 30 minutes even on our 500 mile drives to New Mexico. You can arrange to meet for gas or food along the way if you want, but remember stores don't like 40 socuts rushing in all at once. Our PLC was in charge of uniform polocy except for travel. We found that clerks just got very nervious with a lot of boys, so ask the PLC to insist on uniform so the clear knew who's adults they belong to. Give your drivers medical imformation on each scout in the car in case, which should include all the appropiate pnone numbers. Get your adults of the mind that you are going to have a million kids running around. That means everything will take longer until they learn the system. Don't get loud, don't get angry, just help the patrol leaders get their guys together. Have a training meeting with the adults and PLC and discuss how each other is going to work the group. The SPL should not be yelling and he needs to get in the habit of asking patrol leaders to quiet their patrol. Not yell at each individual scout. Make the PLC work together. If that isn't working, the ASPL needs to work his way around to that patrol and help the patrol leader so the SPL is not interrupted. If that still doesn't work and sometimes new scouts are just excited, the SM needs wonder over and ask the ASPL if he needs help. If that doesn't work, one of you guys quietly ask the scout or scouts to leave the room so you can talk to them. These are good leadership practices anyways, but until your troop gets its feet back, it has to be kind of expected and pushed. Practice this with the PLC before the new scouts show up. Also practice how an ASM can sort of help the young PL get his guys together when it is time for the meeting. It takes about three months for everyone to figure it out. Now, the hardest part of all this is the temptation for the adults to take over. You don't need to, just fill in where maturity and experience haven't developed yet. But never take the floor away from the SPL without first asking. The quicker everyone learns the SPL IS the leader, the faster respect for the youth leadership will develop. One way of getting in the habit of this teach the adults to never put their sign up first, but instead wait for a youth leader. If an adult has the floor but really needs the boys to quiet down, the adult ask the SPL or highest ranking youth leader in a very quiet tone of whisper to get control or quiet the scouts. Don't give up the boy run part of the program because you feel overwhelmed by the numbers. Our meetings aveaged 50 scouts and we never yelled. The scout just learned to ask for help. Get ready for a lot of money. I mean if you don't have a good treasuring system and treasure, get one now because your troop will be handleing several thousand dollars just at next summer camp. My wife (a CPA) was our treasure and after ten years, she figure she processed over 50000 checks. That is a lot of checks. Get software and someone to use it and get control before you start. Your treasure will get a lot of calls about money and it can be imbarrasing if they don't know what they are doing. 40 scouts exchange a lot of money just for a simple campout. Finally, have a honest meeting with all the adults. Parents included and explain what is about the happen. It is a good thing, but you want to be ready. Let them know that this will be challenging and take some time for learning. There will be some frustrating times, but allow some time for adjusting. I wish we had done this with our first group and I don't think we would have lost so many. We did do it with our second large new group and we didn't loose hardly any. If you think you have a good program, then tell them that. But it must be understood that adding that many new scouts takes some adjustment. Once they understand that, they will stand back a little during those difficult moments. Can it all be done, you bet. Our Troop Grew from 15 to 50 in four years after loosing at least 30 scouts in those years. Our program kept doing well and we averaged 20 new scouts a year for eight years. When I left as SM after about 10 years, we had 94 scouts on the roster. In a distict of 20 troops, we were the third largest troop in our third year. We kept that place even after I quit with 94 scouts on the roster. In all those years, we never went recruiting new scouts. Our programs reputation just kept bringing them in. And I want to point out that we were considered the most boy run troop in the council of 350 troops. So it can be done. W never set limits, but we didn't recuit as I said. We also raised the rates to join. But honestly, I never heard anyone say that was and issue. If they wanted a good boy run program, they joined. IF a family couldn't afford us but wanted our troop, we help them out. We never turned anyone away, but is sure was tempting. I wrote somethng about this a few years ago on another forum and I notice someone else has post that thread and a couple others on their Web Site. Got to http://www.scoutingideas.com/doku.php and look for "Troop Size and Program--Facts & Myths" It might have something in there that will help, I don't know. OK! I wrote this while my wife was yelling supper, so I hope it reads well enough to understand. I have been where you are at and I wish we had forums back then. Good luck I love this scouting stuff. Your oldest scouts Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
SSScout Posted September 14, 2006 Share Posted September 14, 2006 Ah, the blessings of growth. Rejoice in poularity, many Troops around the country are struggling. If you can't deal with Patrols that are semi autonomous from the Troop, perhaps setting off a new Troop could be considered. OOO- OOO! I know! The charter org sponsors TWO Troops! A north end Troop and a south end Troop! WoW! True story: My Cub Pack sponsored a "Join Scouting" night at the elementary school. We invited our Scout Troops to come , they set up a rope bridge and model camp site. We also invited the local Girl Scout Troops to come (seemed only right...). They both declined, complaining that they "had too many girls" already and didn't want any more (!!). YiS Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
SSScout Posted September 14, 2006 Share Posted September 14, 2006 Ah, the blessings of growth. Rejoice in poularity, many Troops around the country are struggling. If you can't deal with Patrols that are semi autonomous from the Troop, perhaps setting off a new Troop could be considered. OOO- OOO! I know! The charter org sponsors TWO Troops! A north end Troop and a south end Troop! WoW! True story: My Cub Pack sponsored a "Join Scouting" night at the elementary school. We invited our Scout Troops to come , they set up a rope bridge and model camp site. We also invited the local Girl Scout Troops to come (seemed only right...). They both declined, complaining that they "had too many girls" already and didn't want any more (!!). YiS Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
SSScout Posted September 14, 2006 Share Posted September 14, 2006 Ah, the blessings of growth. Rejoice in poularity, many Troops around the country are struggling. If you can't deal with Patrols that are semi autonomous from the Troop, perhaps setting off a new Troop could be considered. OOO- OOO! I know! The charter org sponsors TWO Troops! A north end Troop and a south end Troop! WoW! True story: My Cub Pack sponsored a "Join Scouting" night at the elementary school. We invited our Scout Troops to come , they set up a rope bridge and model camp site. We also invited the local Girl Scout Troops to come (seemed only right...). They both declined, complaining that they "had too many girls" already and didn't want any more (!!). YiS Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mike F Posted September 15, 2006 Share Posted September 15, 2006 Blazer, Lots of good advice in here - heed it carefully. One of our troops had similar growth spurt - went from about 50 to 135 in 5 years. They couldn't handle it and the program suffered greatly. They were boy-run, simply exceeded the boy's ability to handle it, and the adults didn't know how to get that balance right. Adults quickly took over most aspects of the program with SPL mostly just calling for opening and closing ceremony. New SM tried to force it back to boy-run too quickly. Membership now falling to about 65 and there are lots of hard feelings. A couple of other local troops are way up over 100 and quite stable. But they are both definitely adult-run and the scouts are not getting the full scouting experience. Sure - the scouts are all advancing at a rapid rate, but that's just because the adults are running them all through the classes. I consider it a travesty. I have seen troops limit the number to join each year - with exceptions for siblings, etc., and think that's a smart way to handle it. Hopefully you have a good SM Roundtable where others can learn about your success and try to duplicate it so all will be stronger. Good luck! -mike Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BrentAllen Posted September 15, 2006 Share Posted September 15, 2006 The Troop I was in as a youth limited membership, and kept a waiting list. 40 boys, 5 patrols. They decided that was the largest number they could handle, given the meeting space, equipment, etc... Limiting membership and keeping a waiting list puts a little more value on membership. If a Scout misses 3 meetings or so with no explanation or communication, he is told someone else who wants to participate is ready to take his spot. Hey, we are all volunteers. As soon as it stops being fun, your volunteers will start to fade away. Do what you have to do in order to continue offering a quality program. Congratulations on your success! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Chippewa29 Posted September 15, 2006 Share Posted September 15, 2006 Oh, to have those problems. I dream of the day... In my district, we have a couple of what I would call "supertroops" where one has over 80 Scouts and the other has close to 110. They each get 30 to 40 Webelos crossing over and lose 25 to 40 Scouts a year. One of the adults in the larger troop commented to me earlier this year his concern with losing what he calls "a troop full of boys each year". I remember a story in Scouting magazine years ago that talked about an Air Force Recruiter that was a Cubmaster. He took over a pack of less than twenty kids and within a few months, had something like 80 to 100 Cubs. They split the pack in two and kept growing. In a couple of years, they had four packs on their base (the original one was the only one when they started) with several dozen Cubs each. The extra structure needed to support a huge troop could very easily be used to split into another troop. Instead of of 80-100 Scouts in a troop, could you still conduct as good of a program with two troops of 40-50 Scouts? Sure. I also believe you would lose less kids because it would be easier to build relationships with all those Scouts. Getting back off this tangent, I feel that you need to have the leadership structure to support the growth. Years ago when I was a Scout, my troop had about a dozen Scouts (all age 13 or younger). We operated very well with two patrols and the active adult leadership (meaning those that went on campouts) was our SM and an ASM. That spring, we had twelve Webelos cross over to the troop. We doubled in size and added two new patrols. However, within a couple of months, we were back down to 15-16 Scouts and three patrols. It wasn't that we didn't have a good program (we had a pretty solid one, camping 9-10 times a year), it was that we didn't have the leadership structure needed to support that many Scouts. Currently, my troop has been stuck at about 20 Scouts for the past two years. We have realized that our leadership structure wasn't meant to support more Scouts than that. We are now implementing changes to our leadership structure so we can grow again. If we suddenly had 15-20 Scouts cross over to the troop and didn't change our structure, we'd probably lose 75% of those new Scouts. However, with adjustments to the leadership structure, we will probably be able to handle that many new Scouts. Moral of the story: make sure you have the structure necessary before adding on all those new Scouts. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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