personnel conflict over relig issue - what next?

[mom162 10]

This is a painful topic, and I am going to be careful describing it to preserve anonymity of all parties. Please bear with me! We've got a confict in our Troop over a religious issue, and it seems that our Charter Org Rep (COR)is about to demand or accept our scoutmaster's (SM's) resignation over it. My specific question is this: can our COR make this change (assuming the Chartered Org supports it) without telling the rest of the parents, or is there supposed to be meeting that people can come to, to give their opinions or at least hear about it before it is all done?

 

Here's more details. The COR started the troop many years ago under a particular denomination's sponsorship, and I know he feels like it's his baby. He stepped down as SM last year, and hand-picked another man (of another faith) to take the position on. Our current Charter Org, of which the COR is a member, has barely any contact with us at all, and we meet in a church location of a different denomination than the CO, since our own CO is too small to host us. Our CO is also the strictest branch of a faith that is having internal conflicts over the politics of discrimination at the national level, so we cannot change Charter Organizations in town if we will still want to maintain an identity in the particular religion.

 

Here's the SM part. Our COR is making ALL the boys adhere to a diet-related principle that pertains only to boys of the faith of the Chartered Org, even though NONE of the current boys in the troop are actually members of that faith. The SM, who is a very good leader for the troop in many ways, is very discouraged and annoyed at having to enforce a religious component on boys who are not of that faith, and feels that this violates the BSA Religious Principles. The actual religious issue is not written into our By-Laws and Regulations. The local scout office gave the SM some advice off the record last year, saying basically, "there's nothing you can do, but you can start your own troop".

 

I phoned the national chaplain of the religious faith involved, the highest scout position in the faith and the current leader of that faith's national scouting organization, and he emphatically agrees with the SM. He suggested putting a positive effort into recruiting boys and families of the pertinent faith, and working with them so that the COR can get off the case of the SM, or simply moving the entire troop to a different Chartered Org, one that suits the membership at this time. I like idea one, idea two might leave one group with all the boys but no equipment or funds, and the other group with all the equipment and no membership.

 

So the question again is, can the COR get his way without holding a meeting with some or all of the parents? Our SM hasn't violated any BSA rules or even the Troop's By-Laws. Is the COR obligated to tell people what is going on, or can he and the CO just fire someone? The local leadership at the Council level seems to want to sidestep this...

 

[Kahuna 172]

The COR can definitely do it, without consulting anyone. The question is, does he represent the CO on this issue? You can go to the head of the CO and ask that question. They have the power to rein him in or replace him.

 

If the CO backs him, then you should be looking for a new sponsor. It makes no sense for the CO to demand that boys not of their faith follow their dietary rules. You should make every effort to do it without rancor and try to get them to agree to let you take your equipment.

[SemperParatus 1]

Welcome.

 

I am not sure I followed all of this, but it sounds like the COR is attempting to bring an end to this troop.

 

Forcing all of the boys to observe some dietary requirement of a religion that they do not observe sure does sound like a dumb idea that will not go over well with the boys or their parents. This COR sounds very dangerous to scouting.

 

Would you mind sharing the specifics of the food requirement? - no meat on Fridays? no crustaceans?

 

Have you gone to the Institutional Head of the CO to plead your case? Most clergy are very reasonable and have a broader concept of things than we sometimes give them credit. It may very well sit wrong with him/her too.

 

I suppose a CO could restrict troop membership to only those of its particular faith, if it were so inclined. In such an instance, there is very little one could do, although changing the rules in mid-stream would mean significant departures.

 

It is not clear why the meeting place CO is unable to establish a new troop that all of the boys could join. Are you just worried about losing your unit number (and history)? I think the boys are much more important than that.

 

 

[ScoutNut 147]

None of the boys in the Troop are a member of this particular religious organization?

 

Why did your CO charter the Troop, many years ago, if not to serve its OWN youth? Why would all of these families choose to be a member of a religious group to which they do not ascribe or belong to?

 

When an organization charters a BSA unit, they then "own" that unit. As long as they adhere to BSA policies & guidelines they are free to run THEIR program in the way that best serves THEIR youth & families. The Charter Org appoints a Charter Org Rep & is also charged with selecting committee members. It is the Committee's responsibilty to select the unit's Leaders.

 

Your Troop's Committee Chair (CC) should talk to the head of your Charter Org (IH) about the actions of the COR. Even though your COR helped to start this Troop, he does not personally own it. Your CO's IH has the ability to appoint a new COR if necessary.

 

Changing CO's can be messy, but is sometimes necessary. It doesn't sound like your CO is living up to it's part of the charter agreement. If push comes to shove, they might be willing to drop the charter & let the unit keep the equipment & whatever else. If the IH can't, or is unwilling to do anything about this COR, your CC might consider contacting your Unit Commissioner & District Executive to talk to them about their responsibilities as a CO.

 

If that does not work, I would start looking for a new CO.

[mom162 10]

Thank you for your replies, Kahuna and SemperP! I am sorry to hear that there is no set process or forum when personnel issues come up, that COs and CORs can act unilaterally.

 

To answer some of the questions, other troop committee members have told me that they have never had any contact at all with the CO, just the COR, so the organization's actual position is a mystery. They may not care, actually. They took over the CO role a few years ago, when the original CO reluctantly canceled the charter due to the discrimination issue.

 

The other families have no idea what's going on at all - I only found out because I have known the SM as a Cub Leader before, and some of the other ASMs are friends, and have confided their frustrations. If we changed SM or CO, I am not even sure the families would know what to think. The meeting place organization would love to have us be their troop, so far no one wants to broach the subject with the COR. He would definitely want to keep the troop number and equipment.

 

I am just a member of the committee, do you think I would be overstepping my bounds to meet with the CO myself? And, actually, I feel sorry for the COR, I think his dream of having a place for boys of his faith has been ruined by the national politics. Which doesn't make his stance rational or right, but I understand the emotions.

 

The dietary rules are no meat and dairy in the same meal, no pork products or shellfish. The irony is that even with those rules, we can't actually say we are doing it right, if a boy did come along from the strict faith, we wouldn't be able to tell the family we comply unless we buy new dishes, etc.

 

Edit: thank you for the last post, it sounds like CC and I (and other interested people) would not be out of place to go talk to the CO IH (does that signify Institution Head?). It does feel like the COR believes he owns the group, it is difficult to work with him because of that.

 

The lack of boys of the current COs faith has to do with the national politics, the brouhaha over discrimination has led the largest groups of this faith to shun scouting, so there is no recruitment going on in the larger community. The CO group that holds our charter is very small, and I guess there are no interested boys in it. It goes back to the COR trying to keep the idea going against all odds.(This message has been edited by mom162)

[ScoutNut 147]

Yes, IH is Institution Head. Your CO IH is the one to talk to. As CC & Committee Members you are well within your job descriptions to talk to the IH.

 

It does sound like the COR feels the Troop is his own little private domain. He should be given a wake up call. If what he wanted was a Troop for boys of his own faith then that should have been a criteria from the very start. There should never have been any recruiting done outside of that faith.

[FScouter 24]

The COR is appointed by the IH/CO. If their appointee is being a pill, they should know about it. Maybe they'll decide to replace him.

[kenk 11]

After reading this thread and the specifics of the dietary restrictions ... with all due respect, I'm going to take a different stance.

 

If I had a troop that consisted of boys from two faiths, and one of the faiths would not allow consumption of something, then I'd ask the boys of the other faith to respect the religious restrictions and do what they could to facilitate that requirement, especially if it is fairly simple thing to do and doesn't really cause too much grief. It is simply a matter of respect for others' religion.

 

When I was a boy at the 1973 National Jamboree we invited a LDS troop to join our non-LDS troop for a cracker barrel. We were careful to provide food/beverages that met the demands of all.

 

Avoiding having meat & dairy in the same meal, eliminating pork & shelfish, and even buying new cook gear, seems like a small price to pay in order to meet the religious needs of some of the boys and make sure that they feel welcome.

 

I just can't imagine ignoring their religious needs, and I also can't see patrols having to cook different foods for different boys at each meal. I lean more toward saying that if a boy or his parents are unwilling to honor the religious dietary needs of fellow scouts, then they may need to find another troop.

 

Question: Excuse my ignorance, but are eggs considered as dairy? I'm thinking of a turkey bacon & egg breakfast. Having a son who is mildly allergic to dairy & wheat, we have been surprised at how much is available without these foods - if you search a bit.

[mom162 10]

Hi kenk - to answer your last question first, eggs aren't dairy products, so the menu should be okay.

 

On your first point, I think everyone would feel differently if we were dealing with boy members and their families who actually did follow the restrictions themselves, then it's an issue of respect and mutual education. But what is bothering everyone right now is that there are no boys in the troop that this applies to. The only person who cares is the COR, who never attends any outings.

[Eamonn 61]

Hi mom162,

When I was a little Lad a good pal of mine got a cricket bat for Christmas from his parents.

During the summer school vacation we along with all the other kids would play cricket with him, using his bat.

Things were fine most of the time, but the game would come to an end when he had to go home for his tea or if he was losing. In which case he would go home taking his bat with him.

If you think of the CO giving your COR a cricket bat, the rest of the story plays out.

Things changed a lot when more of us got our own cricket bats. He still went home for his tea and still went home when he was losing but the game played on.

I think you know what needs done.

Sure you might not see every family want to move. But at the end of the day I would ask:

What is this CO doing for the Scouts in the unit? And do I want to play with a COR who doesn't want to play cricket?

Eamonn

 

[SeattlePioneer 144]

Interesting thread.

 

As I understand it, the COR can fire the Scoutmaster, but can't impose dietary rules on the Troop. The Scoutmaster has control of the program, including Scout menues.

 

I also agree that visiting the Institutional Head to discuss the actions of the COR is the right thing to do.

 

If I were an adult leader in this Troop, I'd get the Scoutmaster and Committee Chair to talk turkey with the COR and IH. Either they back off or the Troop finds a new chartering organization.

 

 

 

Seattle Pioneer

[Hunt 11]

If the COR is insisting that the troop keep strict kosher at all campouts, that's actually pretty hard for people who are not kosher. It's not like avoiding one food that somebody doesn't eat. Really, the boys would have to have separate kosher gear to do it right--even their personal gear, if they use any of it for cooking. And if there are no boys in the troop who keep kosher, it's too much of an imposition.

That being said, if the whole purpose of the CO's involvement is to provide a kosher troop, then you may have no option other than to seek out a new CO. What about the church where you actually meet?

[scoutldr 739]

Welcome to the forums.

 

A couple of observations and opinions:

 

1. If a CO wants to restrict membership to those of its own faith, they are free to do that, then they can "keep kosher" all they want (not to assume we are talking about Judaism, since other faiths also have dietary restrictions). But if they have signed a charter and welcome members of any faith, then they must adhere to the policies of the BSA, which is to respect the differences and practice of the faiths of all members.

 

2. If the troop committee (which does not include the SM and ASMs) disagrees with the policies of the CO, they should work through the COR to resolve their differences. Failing that, the District/Unit Commissioner and DE should discuss the issue with the IH. The charter is a contract between the BSA and the CO...parents and troop leadership are not parties to that contract. That being said, I'm not sure under what circumstances a parent should be contacting national leaders of their chartered partners over a troop dispute. That probably won't win any friends.

 

3. As you have learned, the CO "owns" the troop, its money and equipment. If the CO is adamant that it will be "their way or the highway", then you have two feet you can vote with, but that's about the only real power you have. Be prepared to move to another unit or start your own, but you probably won't be taking any funds or equipment (or unit number) with you unless the CO agrees.

 

4. We have a unit in our council comprised of Muslims. If a scout doesn't want to face East and pray to Allah five times a day and memorize the Koran, they need to find another unit...not expect the CO to change their ways. We also have LDS units who do not camp on Sundays and do not permit female leaders. Everyone knows who they are and if you don't want to pack up and leave camp at sundown Saturday, there are plenty of other units to choose from. In fact, we have had LDS parents move their sons to non-LDS troops because of these policies.

 

5. Yes, I think you may have overstepped. If the SM, ASMs and/or PLC have issues, they should be presented to the Troop Committee for resolution. The CC then interacts with the COR to represent the wishes of the Committee...not individual committee members.

 

Good Luck.

 

(This message has been edited by scoutldr)(This message has been edited by scoutldr)

[purcelce 11]

Scoutldr sums it up best.

[Hunt 11]

I think scoutldr's summary misses the point that apparently this troop is composed entirely of boys who are not members of the CO's faith, or at least of boys who do not follow the dietary restrictions in question. Now, if they all knew they were joining a "kosher troop" (and the specific restrictions make it pretty likely that's what this is), they have less reason to complain about it now--but there's a real inconsistency here. Were there formerly members who did follow the restrictions, and they've gradually been replaced?