Eamonn Posted September 28, 2005 Share Posted September 28, 2005 I have over the past few days and weeks been a little disappointed at how in my view ready we are to toss the methods of Scouting out the window. Correct and proper uniforming surely has to be a goal for each and every troop? Finding out what the correct uniform consists of isn't hard. Helping Scouts and adults who might have a hard time coming up with the money to buy uniforms might need a little imagination and some hard work. Creating an environment where Scouts will wear it is a test of leadership. I know and have heard just about every argument that has come down the pike, I know that it's not good for a lot of the activities that some Troops do. I know that the shorts are too long or too short, that the cargo pockets are as useful as pockets in your underwear. I wasn't happy to pay $38.00 for two pair of shorts when OJ needed them for NOAC last summer. But what we have is the uniform of the BSA. Not what I think it should be or ought to be, not what each Troop thinks it should be or ought to be. It's the BSA uniform and we don't have the right or the authority to change it. Yes I know that owning and wearing the uniform is not a condition of membership. I understand that some Scouts will not manage to get all the parts at one time and I'm willing to turn a blind eye to that even if it does mean that the Lad is not in full and correct uniform. Thats why I said it should be a goal. There is a big difference between that and the units that tell a new parent not to bother buying the pants or the shirt because we don't wear them in our troop.While the PLC can decide the dress code for certain activities they are not empowered to change what the uniform is. The Patrol method is again in my view one big thing that sets Boy Scout Troops apart from other youth organizations. There is no such thing as a Virtual Patrol. Making the Patrol Method work is not easy. It takes a lot of time, effort, guidance and support from the Scoutmaster.He is charged with training the Patrol Leaders. When I hear that only a couple of Scouts from a Patrol have turned up for a Troop or Patrol activity, my first question is not shall we do with these couple of Lads? My first question has to be why are there only a couple of Lads? If the activity came from the PLC, if the Scouts planned and arranged it, if it was something that they wanted to do - Why aren't they there? Is there a problem with communication? Is there some other problem that isn't easy to see? Hazing? Bullying? Or is it in the way that the Patrols have been formed? Still once a Scout is in a Patrol that is his Patrol. If the program has been followed and with some luck that will be his Patrol from day one till he ages out. Is it fair when members of the Patrol don't support the Patrol? No it's not, but isn't that the role of the Patrol Leader to ensure that everyone knows that this is their team, their gang and that they are all team members. When the adults start messing around with combining patrols and virtual patrols, not only are they ruining the Patrol method but they are are harming the leadership development of the Patrol Leader and hurting him in his Personal growth. The same day as I read the thread about unearned Merit Badges I received a phone call from a very upset Dad. His son had been told that the Troop wouldn't present his son the Merit Badges that he had got over the summer at Summer Camp and at Eagle Camp, until he explained what he had done to earn that at a BOR. Dad is an Eagle Scout,Dad knew that this wasn't right and he was upset. He had met with the Troop Leadership and our DE, everyone said that the Lad has to wait till November for a BOR? This isn't how Boy Scout advancement works.I'm sure that the son has heard how upset Dad is. I can't help thinking; what does he think about his Scout Leaders? What sort of example are they providing for this Lad? Are these people really showing him that they are people of high character? Are these the best adult people he can associate with for his personal growth? I am not a great lover of the Eagle Camp that our Council offers and I have argued against it and lost!! The methods of Scouting do work and work well if we the adults decide that we are here to serve the Scouts that we lead and follow the programs of the BSA. Again in my eyes I don't see this as being that hard. However if anyone is unwilling to use these methods maybe they should think about serving in a position where they don't need to use them. (District Chairman comes to my mind!!) Or maybe this just isn't the right organization for them and they need to look for one that is a better fit. Eamonn. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
kenk Posted September 28, 2005 Share Posted September 28, 2005 I am with you all the way my friend. I am seeing "flavors" of Scouting based upon the whim of a adult leaders. I'm also bothered that many troops are so heavily influenced by one person. It is quite common around here for troops to be referred to as "Jerry Thompson's Troop". Huh? I know that my Cub Scout Pack isn't associated with any one individual, and that is a good thing. Our Pack is the accumulated effort of the committee and parents, and we follow the program as it was designed. Especially lately another thing that I've noticed is adult leaders simply not living up to the Scout Law. I've run up against blatently rude leaders who put their desires (or their sons) ahead of what is right or what is best for the Pack. I can't stand when I have to explain the inappropriate actions of an adult leader to my son. The Scouting program works and it works VERY well. One of my goals as a Webelos Den Leader will be to teach the boys' parents how Boy Scouts is supposed to work so that they can ask questions and demand that the program be run as it was designed and as it has worked so well for so many years. Venividi's suggestion for me as a Webelos Den Leader to read the Patrol Leader's Handbook and the Scoutmaster's Handbook will be a great step in the right direction. I might suggest to our council training person that she develop a course for Webelos Den Leaders that describes Boy Scouts and gives advice for Troop selection, which then could be passed on to the parents. Ken K. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Kudu Posted September 28, 2005 Share Posted September 28, 2005 Creating an environment where Scouts will wear it is a test of leadership. Creating a uniform that the Scouts can wear in the outdoor environment is a test of an association's leadership. The solution is obvious: rename the "Uniform Method" the "Blind Obedience Method," and find some other meaningless rule to impose on the Scouts. Maybe a bad haircut. Design a breathable nylon outdoor uniform but forbid Scouts from wearing it indoors. You would then have a real Scout uniform and a real Method of Scouting. While you are at it, get rid of "Personal Growth" as a Method. It really isn't a Method, it is an Aim. If you can have "Three Aims of Scouting," then why not four? Unlike a true Scouting Method (such as Outdoors, Patrol, Uniform, Ideals, Advancement) there is no activity that you can do to encourage personal growth that wouldn't fit just as easily under another category such as the Ideals or Advancement. Eliminate "Leadership Development" as a Method and return it as a subset of the Patrol Method where William Hillcourt (the inventor of the "Methods of Scouting") placed it. Finally, restore "The Scout Way," Hillcourt's first (and most important) Method of Scouting: "Scouting is a Game, NOT a Science!" Kudu Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
FScouter Posted September 28, 2005 Share Posted September 28, 2005 "The solution is obvious: ..." And until the aims and methods are re-written, what aims and methods do we unit leaders use? Do we re-write them now as we see fit and wait for the day that BSA sees the light and catches up to us? How can 38,000 different units write their own version of aims and methods and each one have the best version? If unit 999's version is "best", 37,999 other methods must be wrong. As a unit leader myself, I don't have time to evaluate 38,000 other aims and methods. BSA has already done that. Who am I to second guess? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Scoutndad Posted September 28, 2005 Share Posted September 28, 2005 Let's set aside the reasons that the scouts should wear the uniforms and look at any other extracurricular activity that these boys are engaged in... Soccer-regulated games do NOT start unless the players have on the correct protective guards and shoes. Hockey-good luck trying to get on the ice without having the right equipment and talking about expensive...don't get me started... Football-same as hockey Lacrosse, Baseball, Basketball (shoes are outrageous), Golf - Same Even non athletic clubs still require a certain degree of equipment investments - ever price out a musical instrument or marching uniform or how about hunting equipment including proper clothing and a bow or firearm or even a chess club member (price out a chess set lately or your sons/daughter own chess pieces with carrying bag for tournaments including travel expenses)... The BSA is no different and any parent that coughs at the price tags, I use the above arguments... Like it or not the scout and parents need to commit to the organization and not the fallacy to "come as you are" - sporting practices and other venues that the group agrees not to come in full uniform or practice apparel are far and few in between. If managed properly and informed correctly, these scouts (and leaders) should have no excuse for not showing up in full uniform. (DNFN - done ranting for now) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jr56 Posted September 28, 2005 Share Posted September 28, 2005 Ditto to everything Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Its Me Posted September 28, 2005 Share Posted September 28, 2005 Eamonn my friend, your post seems to wonder. Is it just another rant about dumb leaders not following the book or do you a have a more definitive position that you are trying to make? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
EagleInKY Posted September 28, 2005 Share Posted September 28, 2005 It's Me - Is that "wonder" or "wander" I try to treat all eight methods as being of equal importance. It's difficult at times to do so. You tend to focus on where your weaknesses lie. Last year we were suffering in the area of boy-leadership, so we really worked hard in that area. Now we're struggling with the patrol system, so we'll focus more on that area. Uniforming has slacked off a little from my standards, but we're still among the best units I've ever seen. Like Kudu, I don't think the uniform synchs with our overall program, but I do the best I can with it. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Hunt Posted September 28, 2005 Share Posted September 28, 2005 "How can 38,000 different units write their own version of aims and methods and each one have the best version? If unit 999's version is "best", 37,999 other methods must be wrong." This assumes that all the units are the same, or that there are not multiple equally good ways of doing something. "As a unit leader myself, I don't have time to evaluate 38,000 other aims and methods. BSA has already done that." This, I think, is a better argument. If the methods have been devised by experts and honed by decades of trial and error in many units, they probably work pretty well. "Who am I to second guess?" But I think you should second guess--you might have a new, better idea. It's what you do with it that creates dissension here. If you had an idea for a new merit badge, you wouldn't just start offering it to your troop--you'd go through channels to try to get it added. On the other hand, I wouldn't respect somebody who told you to forget it because the experts hadn't come up with the same idea. So I personally am in favor of following the methods. I do think that sometimes local circumstances affect how you apply them. For example, I would not expect a very small troop with only one new recruit to put him into a New Scout Patrol all by himself--I wouldn't say that such a troop is refusing to follow the Patrol Method. That's a far cry from simply ditching methods because you think your idea is better (ie., letting Scouts hold BORs or something like that). Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bob White Posted September 28, 2005 Share Posted September 28, 2005 If you make up a method that you think is better and use it instead then you are not doing a scoutijng program, you are doing YOUR program in a scout unifrom and that is false advertising. What gives an individual volunteer the authority to alter the methods of scouting? I agree with Eamonn, but then we live in the same world, and we are not as lonely as some might think. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Eamonn Posted September 28, 2005 Author Share Posted September 28, 2005 Kudu, I don't think anyone can come up with an outdoor uniform that will suit every state in the union and every sort of weather condition. Here in Southwestern Pennsylvania it's hard to know if a Scout is in uniform in the winter when he is outdoors all you see is a winter coat. During the summer most of the time Scouts do activities in the activity uniform. Still I don't think what the uniform is, is as important as us the adults remembering that we belong to the BSA as it is today. I know that there are some areas where the Brits do a better job than the BSA. I could harp on about how much better things were in the UK and maybe choose not to follow the BSA. I feel that would be wrong on my part. The Scouts I serve are members of the BSA and I serve at the pleasure of the BSA. As a member of the BSA I'm happy to use everything that it has to offer. It's Me, I think you are right!! Maybe it was /is a rant. But I hope it has more to do with treating Scouts correctly than dumb leaders. The methods of Scouting when followed go a very long way to ensure that the Scouts we serve receive the program that they deserve. As EagleInKY says Troops go through different stages. Different groups of Scouts do things differently, see things differently and have different needs. Some times it seems that everything just falls into place while there are times when it seems everything is a uphill battle. I have no idea if the uniform will change, if we will follow the Venturering Program and allow units to opt for the BSA uniform or one of their own making? I do know that I was aware what the uniform was when I signed on. Eamonn. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Kudu Posted September 29, 2005 Share Posted September 29, 2005 The Methods of Scouting are only a theory of how Scouting works, so all such discussions are theoretical and purely subjective. In reality there are 38,000 different versions of the Eight Methods. When we talk about Methods of Scouting, we are revealing our values. Some people value absolute obedience to authority, and so they talk about "following" the Eight Methods. On the other hand, the Methods can be viewed as being merely descriptive. Eamonn, have you ever heard of the "Eight Methods of Scouting" in the UK? My guess is that you haven't, but some Brits dare to call it "Scouting" even so. If you looked at the three different UK Scouting associations through the filter of the "Eight Methods" you would find that they all "follow" the Eight Methods to some degree. The different degrees to which they do so reflect the different values that these different associations place on such practices. William Hillcourt's Methods of Scouting were used for 25 years, as opposed to the so-called "Eight Methods of Scouting," which have been around for 24 years. I simply submit that Hillcourt's Methods were better, but that reflects the fact that I value Traditional Scouting over the current religious conservative monopoly product. Baden-Powell structured Scouting as "I) Boy Training; II) Character Training; III) Physical Health and Development; IV) Self-Improvement for Making a Career; V) Service for Others (Chivalry and Self-Sacrifice the Basis of Religion)," but did not consistently refer to these elements of Scouting as "methods." As a thought exercise, what is the very worst that would happen if your troop practiced "William Hillcourt" Scouting for one month a year, using Hillcourt's Methods of Scouting rather than the current eight? See: http://www.inquiry.net/adult/methods Would Eamonn or Bob White even be able to tell that you weren't "following" the "Eight Methods"? Imagine 1) No "Personal Growth" method. Come on, what would you do differently if personal growth was not a method? When this "method" was introduced, there was a checklist by which you could "measure" personal growth in relation to the "Three Aims of Scouting" but nobody does that anymore, see: http://www.inquiry.net/adult/methods/6th.htm 2) No "Leadership Development" method. If you made it a subset of the Patrol Method and used Hillcourt's "Patrol Leader Training" (as opposed to Junior Leader or Troop Leader Training) for a change, would your Troop Librarian or Troop Scribe suddenly become dyslexic? Would your Troop Bugler become tone deaf (or any more tone deaf)? Is there really any downside to occasional Patrol Leader specific training? See: http://www.inquiry.net/patrol/green_bar 3) If one month a year, you chucked the politically correct "Adult Association" in favor of male role models (Hillcourt's "Men in Scouting") would your Scouts' development be forever shattered because they have nowhere else to look for female role models? 4) If we brought back William Hillcourt's The Scout Way (1. A Game, NOT a Science), Bob White's head would explode, but I don't see a downside. I don't think anyone can come up with an outdoor uniform that will suit every state in the union and every sort of weather condition. That is a myth. I have a breathable nylon shirt similar to the BSA's new product, and it works from -10 degrees to the mid 90s, in any Scouting situation, see: http://tinyurl.com/arbn7 Breathable "zip-off" nylon pants work just as well, however in the winter they only serve to promote unit cohesiveness and do not have any practical value other than as a shell layer. Here in Southwestern Pennsylvania it's hard to know if a Scout is in uniform in the winter when he is outdoors all you see is a winter coat. Here in Southwestern New York, we know when they take their coat off inside the cabin :-) The point of wearing a Scout Shirt in the great outdoors (where all Scouting "should" take place) is that the Patrol Patch reinforces the Patrol Method, the Position Patch reinforces Leadership Development, the Rank Patch reinforces Advancement, the Temporary patch reinforces the history of the Troop, the Merit Badges (if worn on the sleeve) reinforce individual proficiencies, the troop numerals reinforce troop identity. Wearing the same style clothing promotes unit cohesiveness, and discourages snobbery. Given the current BSA Uniform, using the Uniform Method as an outdoor method is probably better practiced with Troop Activity Uniforms. I have no idea if the uniform will change, if we will follow the Venturering Program and allow units to opt for the BSA uniform or one of their own making? As a thought exercise it is possible to that now in the Scout division without avoid breaking any rules by sewing non-BSA patches on the above BSA activity shirt. Such generic patches to replace official BSA patches can be purchased, see: http://www.inquiry.net/advancement/traditional/generic.htm Kudu Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bob White Posted September 29, 2005 Share Posted September 29, 2005 The scout Methods are a theory? Only a theory? Where is that taught? The Scout Methods, as a refresher, are the transition between the Aims of Scouting and the Mission of scouting. The Aims are "What we do", the MEthods are "How we do it", The Mission is "Why we do it". How do you take "how we do it" and make it merely a theory? The Methods are specific actions. Could a trained Scouter tell if you weren't using the personal growth method. Well...it may take 3 or 4 minutes but.. YES. It's not that hard. I ask you a few questions about how you do Scoutmaster conferences and boards of review and if you give me thoughtful honest answers I can not only tell you IF you use it or not, but if you use it well or not. Hillcourts Scouting went something like this, It is the scoutmaster's responsibility to train junior leaderS and to put on "the best show in town". Hillcourt told us at a commissioner college and again at a Wood Badge reunion to stop blaming parents, peers, school, sports and other things for boys quitting the troop. If you want to see the reason look in the mirror. If you are scoutmaster then YOU are responsible." Does that sound familiar to you Kudu? That's what Eamonn and I and a few others have been saying here for years. PL training isn't something you need to stop and do. It is a constant use of leadership styles that allow you to counsel and mentor rather than tell and yell. If you feel that the only way to develop good young men is only through male association you need to go work that out with your mother. I am sure she probably feels that she had some relevant and valuable input in your growth. I would rather my son had a female scoutmaster than one who treated the scouting methods as a theory to use or ignore at his whim. I would love to see more scout leaders follow Hillcourts example. Where I get to feeling explosive is when so many good scouts are chased off by leaders who do not know, or do not use, the scouting program but just enjoy dressing up in tan and bossing other people's children around. I grew up on Hilcourts teachings as a Scout, and even had the opportunity to sit down with him on three occassions and talk about scouting. I'm not sure you grasp the methods or philosphy of Hillcourt based on your posts and what he taught us. Hillcourt was a strict patrol method guy, and the job of the SM was to train and develop his craft and leadership skills so he could teach it to his patrol. You didn't tell the scout what to do, you asked him what he was going to do. Much of what Hillcourt believed is still taught today. It just isn't used much by many of the posters on this forum. But don't think there aren't plenty of scouters who use it. Hillcourt was the one who really brought home the importance of not mixing and dividing patrols. If your brother gets sick you don't borrow someone elses brother to fill-in in your family. It's a shame that the only way you know who are the scouts in your cabin is when they take their coat off. We can tell long before that because we know who our scouts are. The uniform is not so we can tell who they are. If you are wearing a scout uniform on a winter camp-out, then someone did a poor job of teaching you how to dress for cold weather. So kudu, you don't wear a scout uniform and you don't use the methods of scouting. If you didn't have a membership card how would you know you were even a scouter? The uniform method and the outdoor method aren't even related other than they are both methods. A patch doesn't reinforce a method. Actions reinforce methods. So what if 8 boys wear the same medallion? If they do not function as an independent unit under their own leadership, within the community of the troop, then no patch will make a difference. Any Scout related shirt IS an Activity Uniform shirt. Why would you go through the expense of sewing a patch on top of another one? Why not just design a shirt? The design simply needs to include a fleur-d'lies, the words "Boy Scouts of America" or the initials "BSA". By the way, a new uniform is expected to be released for the 100th Anniversary. Even if it pleases 90% of all memebers you can still be one of the 350,000 that will complain about it. Before you decide that the Methods of Scouting are only a theory perhaps you should try learning and using them. The scouting that Eamonn, Fscouter, OGE, CNY, myself and a few others talk about is much closer to the scouting of Baden-Powell and Hillcourt then what you have recommended. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Eagle74 Posted September 29, 2005 Share Posted September 29, 2005 Thank you BW for clearing up Green Bar Bill's underlying philosophical emphasis on the Patrol method. Had the honor of meeting with him in 1979 as part of a small group audience open discussion about Scouting. Still have my autographed 9th edition, 1st printing, of what I call "Bill's Scout Handbook". He was a fascinating man to speak with. My two cents . . . the Aims and Methods (all) are valid and critical to delivery of a "Scouting" program. Do we all do them all well? No. Should we be doing our best to Deliver the Promise by using the Aims and Methods? Yes. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Hunt Posted September 29, 2005 Share Posted September 29, 2005 I think one source of disagreement here is use of terms. Methods, rules, program elements, and values are all related, but they are not the same things. Thus, Advancement is a Method. There are rules related to it, such as who should serve on a BOR. There are also program elements as to how it is delivered--such as where and when MBs are offered, or what specific activities will be done at what campouts. It seems to me that if somebody accepts the validity of the Method, and follows the rules, there can still be a wide variety of program elements from unit to unit. The Outdoor method will be very different for different troops, for example, but they can both be following the rules. Another way of putting this is that the Method is not every detail of every suggestion in every BSA document. It is an overall approach, shaped by certain rules, which is then delivered through a program which is more or less prescribed. Some of the Methods are more prescribed (Advancement, Uniform), while others less so (Outdoor). I say all this to suggest that most of these discussions about methods have really boiled down into two main categories: 1. Whether it's OK to ignore some of the rules; and 2. Whether some particular way of delivering the program is close enough to the way it's described in BSA materials. But these aren't the same. While we can argue about whether a troop that only does car camping is adequately delivering the Outdoor method, that's a different discussion from one about a troop that uses scouts to run BORs. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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