The Former SM (Now ASM) That Won't Let Go.... and his wife, the Advancement Coord.

[Joni4TA 10]

What do you do (or not do) with a Former SM (who ran an Eagle Mill and Merit Badge Factory), never allowed the Troop to be boy-run, and still interfere's with the new SM's position and program, as an ASM?

 

And then there is his wife, the Advancement Coordinator, who will not allow the new SM to be the "master" database keeper (in TroopMaster) and still has the Former SM signing Merit Badges, bad-mouths the new SM behind his back to anyone who will listen, etc.

 

Our CC is untrained and therefor I can't blame him at all for not assering his position in the matter, though he is painfully aware of the territorial pissing. The bad thing is, all the boys are aware too. We get boys who approach the former SM/ASM and rather than shuffle the boys to the SM, he handles things the way HE sees fit, and then never bothers to even consult the SM! The boy will tell the SM at some point about the advice he received from former SM/ASM and the new SM feel obviously undermined. Wouldn't you?

 

Example - New SM encourages ALL Scouts and Scouters to wear their FULL scout uniform to meetings. The Former SM/ASM tells the SPL that the SM can't decide that, it's a PLC decision. First of all the ASM is WRONG, but worse than that, the ASM undermined the SM's authority right there and then!

 

Former SM who won't let go, that's the main issue. What to do? Who says a Former SM should be an ASM? the New SM didn't appoint him to be an ASM, I guess he decided this himself... Your thoughts?

[scoutldr 732]

As you know, only the CO can appoint and approve unit leaders. One cannot "self-appoint" to a position. One can only volunteer to serve. How is the person registered on the charter? There's your answer. If the CO/COR has approved his continuance as an SA, then you're stuck. If the SA is undermining the SM's authority, then the SM and CC need to have a private meeting and set the boundaries. If he refuses to change, then the only recourse is for the CC to recommend to the COR that his membership not be renewed. Also, the SPL needs to be told that the authority is the SM, not the SA...if the SA tries to undermine, then the SPL can politely say, "I'm sorry but Mr. SM told me this and he's the one who decides." Hard for a youth to do, but that's part of the learning process.

[SemperParatus 1]

I wish I had a good answer for you. I was in a very similar situation myself several years ago. While I know that time will eventually take care of the problem (usually once the old SM's son leaves the troop), it sounds like you need some immediate relief.

 

In crafting a solution, maybe try and figure out why the old SM can't let go. What were his stated reasons for stepping down? Is he trying to protect his own son's and other older boys' advancement? Is he bored in his new diminshed role and is looking for something to do? Is he just a control freak that never wanted to give it up in the first place? Is he jealous of the changes being made or fearful that he will be made to look bad? If you can get to the reason, then the solution is easier to find.

 

For example, if his son is 17 and is about to Eagle, there is a very good chance that he will be gone in the near future and it might be a matter of just waiting. If he is looking for something significant to do, maybe approach him about taking on a massive new project that will occupy his time so that he forgets about being SM - startup of a venture crew or alumni association, planning for an upcoming anniversary celebration or major hi-adventure trip, etc. If he feels that all of his hardwork is now being tossed aside by the new regime and he never got the credit he feels he deserved, honor him with a retirement celebration at the next COH. If he is just a control freak that is not willing to let go, then the SM should take him aside with the CC and politely explain his new role and that you value his experience and input, but he can no longer interfere in a manner that undermines the new SM.

 

In our troop, we have SM Staff meetings once a quarter where all the SM/ASMs get together to hash out programming, planning, advancement and individual concerns. These meetings have really helped to open the lines of communication among our adult leaders and we are able to address problems and personality issues in an open setting that holds us accountable to each other. I would highly recommend this method for bringing the retired SM into the fold as an assistant.

 

Good luck to you.

[Eagledad 2784]

Hi All

 

I've been at the other end of this. I was the guy the new SM didn't want around. In my case, I took off for six weeks without showing up for any meetings or campouts. When I came back, it was his troop. That also help me breakoff from the troop as well.

 

The committee could ask this ASM to do that so the new SM can get use to the program, that would be the the excuse anyway. The old SM needs some time off to not be a SM. When he gets back, it will not be his troop.

 

Also, I really like Semper suggestion. That is how I handled other adult situations similer to this. There is something about being in a public forum that levels the field. One on one, the ASM doesn't respect the SM as the leader. But in the group, the one ASM is outnumbered by eveyone else. He will still have opinions, but now its keep in check by everyone else, and the SM.

 

As for his wife, she is pulled in by default. She is emotionally involved which is really hard because logical reasoning is not going to change her. Only her husband can do that. BUT, I found a way to deal with these kind of adults. I suggested, HIGHLY, that all the committee members turn there jobs into the boys jobs with them as the advisor. The advancement positioin is where we started. We gave the computer to the scouts and they had to fill in the Troopmaster every week. The adult then had to let the scout do is work, and check up after.

 

NOw the reality is the adult doesn't really change her job that much, but her job description forces her to not be the owner of the computer, the software and 100% of the responsibility. There is suppose to be a scout in their somewhere.

 

Finally I feel a little anger from you from the uniform comment. Emotions can make us take our eye off the ball. You have picked sides here, but I wonder why. Why do you think the New SM is better? My point is what backs you up that you and the New SM are right, and the ASM is so wrong. It might be that the undermining has the group so stressed that emotions are taking over. Get back to the basics, why is the new SM doing what wants to do? Why did the old SM do what he did? I kind of like both SMs way of handling the uniform. What is wrong with either method.

 

This could just be a matter of needing to listen to each other a little more, which makes Sempers suggestion a really good one.

 

Hey good luck. I always like to say that Scouting is a great program for our sons until the adults get involved. Don't let that happen.

 

Barry

[dan 10]

This sounds like most troops. The scouts going to the adults that they feel can help them the most. Or telling the scouts what they want to hear. As mentioned above the CC needs to tell the former SM to step away for a while. BUT it seems like the SM is allowing this to happen. The SM has a great tool to use, if he wants. Within the SM handbook it states that the SM signs off of all requirements or someone he delegates. The SM needs to make up a list of who can sign off of requirements and not include the ex SM. This will most likely cause quite a commotion within the troop. But it will show the scouts and adults who is running the show. Like it or not the SM is the person with the most responsibility for the troop doing good or not. It maybe true that the COR selects the leaders, but the SM has a great tool to help him select his leaders. This would take a very strong SM to pull this off.

I really do not understand the issue of the advancement chair being in charge of the data in Troop master, is that not her job? Why would the SM want to take over another job? That job should not be taken on by a SM. It sounds like this SM wants to be in charge of everything also?

For the uniform issues, the SM needs to have the SPL explain at a PLC why a PLC should not be trying to change the BSA uniform.

 

[acco40 95]

Let's see, what is the SM supposed to do?

Train and guide boy leaders.

Work with other responsible adults to, bring Scouting to boys.

Use the methods of Scouting to achieve the aims of Scouting.

 

Hmmm, I don't see anything about filling in the TM database. Ideally, the committee secretary, advancement chair, training coordinator, outdoor/activities coordinator, treasurer and others would have input into TM. Should a troop use one "master" database gatekeeper or allow many fingers into the pie? Good questions which I suppose are highly dependent on what the individuals involved want and are capable of doing.

[troop251scout 10]

This is a similar case to the way our troop used to be run except ours wasnt this bad the scoutmaster just didnt realize what was going on and what was supposed to happen..

 

When i first came to the troop as a new scout not knowing much, i was friends with the other older scouts there and we knew we had to do something so we got together, got a plan together of everything we felt needed to change and then sat down with the scoutmaster and CC and told them how we felt. They both liked the idea and we have been scout run ever sence. Im not sure if it would work in this case but you never know. talk to a group of scouts and tell them that it needs to be taken care of.. Adults will usually listen to the scouts in their troop especially if they are not having a good time.

[Joni4TA 10]

Hi, I should have added some more background to the issue of the Advancements person handling the entire database.

 

1) the person refuses at times to make any changes the SM asks them to or it takes them over 6 weeks to make a change (something as simple as a calendar item - we won't even get into something like a training date or an advancement)

 

2) the person DOES NOT have a good cooperative working relationship with the SM, and instead does nothing but talk about him behind his back, trying to get others to hop on the "I hate the SM bandwagon". In fact, the Advance person went behind the SM's back just recently and told the CC that she wanted the SM's resignation! The CC was forced to call the SM to get his thoughts, then he had to waste his time calling every committee member to get their thoughts. Bottom line was, the CC didn't feel there would even be enough "votes" to get rid of the SM. Secondly, the SM has 100% of the District's support! So not only is the Advance person a problem, but they are also causing problems for the SM. That coupled with the ASM that won't let go being her spouse (they run as a team, I sometimes believe the ASM is doing the Advancements and not the Advancements person) it's a combination problem!

[Eagle1973 10]

Not sure if this has been suggested or asked, but has the SM talked with these folks or has the CC sat down with all parties concerned?

 

Personally, if I were the SM, I'd call for the meeting. It may be the start of him taking charge.

 

Aren't we all supposed to be grown-ups and do this for the Scouts?

 

Just my $.02 worth.

 

YIS

[12Points 10]

Hi Scouts and Scouters, the "new" scoutmaster in question chiming in. First, it's probably best to explain I'm the new scoutmaster for the troop, but have been a scouter since 89 and SM in two other troops in the past. Being military, I move around a lot.

 

The basic issue here is I am changing a program that the old scoutmaster was running, and there is a natural resistance on his part. No one likes to see their programs change. The former SM was extremely well organized and had a handle on everything. In essence, he was the SPL, SM, CC, fundraiser chair, and quartermaster (boy position, not equipment coordinator). The phrase "Third Year Webelos Program" is frequently used in the District when referring to our troop. I'm trying to change that. I had the boys set the calendar for the troop, broke the meetings to patrol instead of one big group, put them in uniform (encouraged), am training the PLC to run things, got them out of public camp grounds (handed them a map with camping areas that aren't public campgrounds marked and asked them to find some places they want to go), got packs on their backs, and, probably most importantly, got rid of the 40 minute merit badge session that was scheduled inside every meeting. I'm also trying to get the Troop Master data files out to the SAs and CMs. Most will be read only, but the program is designed to put out 8 different satellite modules that cover different committee functions. The only module I want control of is activities, but to get it out I need to get it away from what I consider to be a control freak first. I'm also trying to get the adults in the troop trained so they will learn what the program is. In essence, I'm trying to use the methods of scouting to produce leaders and good citizens rather than generate 6 Eagle Scouts a year. Sure, it's going to get a little ugly and have a lot of pimples, but when's the last time you looked at a 16 year-old boy. Pimples are part of the program :-) The boys seem to be responding well, and as they get more pumped up, the parents are beginning to follow.

[dan 10]

12points

It seems you have a good resource in Joni4TA.

 

But I have another question, of course. Why is the former SM no longer the SM? Did he step down or what?

 

For the Troopmaster database issues. I just ordered TroopMaster DotNet, for the troop, for the same reasons, maybe you could look into it. It is not cheap, 70.00 dollars. But if your troop is large enough, it maybe worth it.

[12Points 10]

Dan,

Yeah, she's pretty good to have around. She'll dig out answers get ideas to help me out. The old SM stepped down because he's too busy with work and intends to go back to college for another degree.