Smile Your On Candid Camera !!

[evmori 11]

Practical jokes have been around for a long time and probably will be here long after we are gone. Smoke shifter hunts, snipe hunts, etc. are nothing more than practical jokes! Hazing! I don't think so. And if you feel this is hazing, what about the OA ordeal? If you think snipe hunts & the ilk are hazing then the OA ordeal is hazing. Personally, I feel neither is hazing.

 

Ed Mori

Troop 1

1 Peter 4:10

[scoutingagain 20]

Ed,

 

With all due respect,

 

One set of activities involves voluntary participation in a challenge with all parameters of the activity explained to scouts in advance.

 

The other set of activities is based upon deception and untruths and is therefore not completely voluntary.

 

Which one do you think enhances the values of the scout law, which one doesn't?

 

SA

[evmori 11]

Hazing is hazing. If snipe hunts are hazing then so is the OA ordeal!(This message has been edited by evmori)

[SemperParatus 1]

SA,

 

You distinguish OA Ordeals as a non-hazing activity since it "involves voluntary participation in a challenge with all parameters of the activity explained to scouts in advance."

 

If you are referring to the words of the first night, that is a far stretch to say that all parameters are explained to scouts in advance. First, half the scouts can't hear all that is said, the other half may have heard but they do not understand - it is certainly not a clear explanation when cloaked in poetic words.

 

Further, the element of peer pressure is clearly evident when a candidate 'voluntarily' submits to going forward with the Ordeal. I have never seen or heard of someone backing out at that point. Talking with scouts after the Ordeal, it is clear that many simply have no clue what is happening at that point in time.

 

I can see where some may certainly consider the Ordeal a form of 'hazing', especially when they feel they were 'abused' during the Ordeal. It is certainly an 'initiation' rite. Wrapping it up as a BSA-sanctioned event steeped in tradition cannot change the fact that more than one scout has felt 'abused' by the Ordeal.

 

Hazing is truly in the eye of the hazee - either you laugh it off as humorous prank at your expense, you embrace it as part of a tradition that you are proud to have now become a part of, or you remember the pain it caused for the rest of your life.

 

 

[scoutingagain 20]

SemperPar,

 

I have no doubt that in the past, and there may be some lodges and/or individual members that currently engage in what I would consider hazing as a part of their Ordeal. I do not condone any activity intended to embarrass, injure or humiliate a fellow scout, youth or adult. Consequently, I do not like the type of skits Eamonn described earlier in this thread, although I confess to having participated in such skits many years ago as both a victim and one who knew the outcome. More often than not however, our intended "victim" was usually an adult not other youth. Not that, that condones the activity.

 

However, I do distinguish between an initiation that involves voluntary participation in a personal challenge that is explained and that is not intended to embarrass the participant versus an activity based on intended deception. If run properly, there is no reason for the OA initiation Ordeal to degenerate to hazing, or at least what I would consider hazing. Granted, an individual participant may feel differently, but if explained properly before the activity, I don't think most people would consider the event hazing.

 

SA

 

 

 

[OldGreyEagle 5]

Actually Ed raises a good point, how many of us remember OA "Tapouts" that degenerated into slugouts that ended with separated shoulders and broken clavicles. Many decried and still decry the end of the tapout tradition and having been tapped out, I undestand the loss. I would love to have the OA start the tapout tradition again, but as soon as one exhuberant tap outer causes a medical bill its all over again. I may have to reconsider my position. I mean if a kid in the troop is sorta meek and shy and the scouts think sending him a letter at summercamp telling him his beloved dog died is a hoot, I mean whats the harm, no one got hurt. The kid oughtta toughen up. And if I get a plate of food that has been doctored with some Tobasco sauce and one mouthful causes me to vomit uncontrollably for about an hour, hey I guess I should toughen up, after all no one promised me a rose garden with this boy scout thing. and if a scout thinks taking some kids clothes is adequate payback, I guess the teaching of respect for other's possesions can be placed on the backburner for one night.

[Eamonn 61]

Scout gets up on a Monkey Bridge and falls.

The G2SS has been followed to the letter, the bridge is safe, but the Lad falls.

I put this down as an accident.

OK back this up let's say the Lad was biting at the bit and couldn't wait. He still falls - Still an accident.

What happens when the Lad didn't want to on the bridge, didn't want any part of it but is somehow forced and falls. This is then Hazing.

I don't see the OA Tap out ceremony as hazing, if the lad enters into freely with some expectation about what he is in for. This expectation does mean that he doesn't expect to get hurt or bones broken.

Eamonn

[Fuzzy Bear 12]

The O.A. Ordeal was never intended to be hazing and for those that might be confused and believe that it falls into the same category as hazing, then they might want to reconsider their definition of hazing. Read the material that is given to each participant. Think about your own experience and then try to explain the joke or injustice.

 

The O.A. "tapout" was never intended as hazing but some did get hurt from the excessive force and it was banned. The intent (generally) was not to hurt anyone or to play a joke. It was meant to be taken seriously and I am not sure that anyone got the joke if it wasn't.

 

It may be that some feel that the O.A. is a joke and that playing Indian is a charade meant only for young people with an imagination. It may be that the poetry of Brotherhood and Cheerful Service is too complex and the terminology is too arcane for such a sophisticated society. If it is a joke, then it is an elaborate joke with very little humor and I don't get it.

 

A snipe hunt is not in the same category with the O.A. Ordeal or the Call Out. Snipe Hunts do not teach a lesson. It does not bring an individual into a Brotherhood and it does not promote Cheerful Service. Its intent is the opposite of those messages and is meant to be harsh. If a person thinks that it is a lesson in toughing up a young man by tricking him to stand outside while holding a bag, then they have missed the point of Scouting.

 

I doubt that there are any here to witness to the benefits of Snipe Hunting. Let's hear your story and the lessons that you learned while holding the bag and having people make fun of you, if that is your cup of tea.

 

I would also challenge any to share the injustices they endured from being associated with the O.A. and the fun made of them at their Ordeal and/or their Call Out.

 

FB

 

[FireKat 10]

"...if the scout thought intuitively he would have gone out on the canon report and when he found out that it was a joke, turned it around on the SPL."

 

To BSAT17SPL:

 

Your ideas are a bit on the extreme side, more along the feuding lines .

Why not come back WITH a cannon report.. a bag that a cohort pops as the scout answers the inevitable question of "where is it?" with "right here" (bang goes the bag)

Keep the turnaround within the frame of the original joke.

 

And always remember . Don't take life seriously..it ISN'T permanent!!!

 

[evmori 11]

Hazing is usually associated with an initiation. Usually performed by frats. To become an OA member, one must complete their Ordeal - which could be considered an initiation - which could be considered hazing. And yes it is different from a snipe hunt. One does not have to participate in a snipe hunt to become a member of a Troop or Patrol. One must complete their Ordeal to become a member of the OA. If you consider snipe hunts hazing then the OA Ordeal is hazing.

 

Ed Mori

Troop 1

1 Peter 4:10

[Fuzzy Bear 12]

Ed,

 

Your comparison uses a limited definition of the word initiation. You may also have a personal dislike for the O.A. which allows your deductive judgment faulty reasoning of the motivation and outcome of the two initiation rites of the two societies. Please reconsider your analysis using the material given to initiates in the O.A..

 

As you know, over many years and many incidents most college fraternity "hazing" rituals have been readjusted due to people getting hurt. The fraternities goal is reduce the numbers that are not interested and to increase the desire of those that do wish to join. Such things as intentional physical and mental abuse, physical overload with no goal in mind, and abuse of alcohol are some of the methods employed to gain the respect and "choice" of those applying for membership. Documented evidence of deaths and injury are associated with these rituals.

 

In the O.A., safety precautions are taken to reduce the probability of physical or mental injury. Information is given to new members to help them understand their experience. There are no jokes in the act or the outcome. It is a Brotherhood that they are joining, it is voluntary, and the outcome is Cheerful Service. If you wish to compare the two, use the phrase, "Many are called but few are chosen" to do so. This applies before the vote is taken by Scouts that are not members of the O.A. and during the Ordeal when a Scout voluntarily learns the basic principles. The work that is done has a practical value/goal. Each request has meaning and is explained. The reduced food intake is meant to emphasize sacrifice but even that can be adjusted if a person has a disability and needs a special diet. The meanings of the goals of the O.A. during the Ordeal are to be impressed on the new member and not the Ordeal itself. Once the Ordeal is completed, it is then a voluntarily act by the new member to make a choice to engage in the O.A. but few continue.

 

Please consider these differences as substantial evidence to believe otherwise.

 

Respectfully,

 

FB

 

[Eamonn 61]

Sorry Ed, I don't agree with you and I'm in the same camp as my favorite Muppet that wise and Fuzzy Bear.

Eamonn.

Fuzzy - Fonzzie! Hey they are close.

Fozzie Bear was born in Yellowstone National Park. As a cub, Fozzie enjoyed the hilarious antics of such comedic geniuses as Milton Berle and George Burns. As a young bear he began standup in his neighbors' caves, getting some pay to move out of his.

He snuck out of Yellowstone in 1975. From there, he tried getting booked for famous night clubs in Hollywood. The best he could get, unfortunately, the best he could get was stand up acts for local hunting lodges."It really hurt me. Literally." Says Fozzie. While vacation with his mother in the Pocono Mountains in Pennsylvania, he met a joke writer, Gags Beasley, by mistake.Gags was known world wide for his "Banana Sketch", although nobody has ever heard it, oddly enough. He thought the bear had real potential. He introduced him to Kermit the Frog and the Muppets. Kermit hired Fozzie because was looking for a comic for The Muppet Show. And besides, he owed Gags a favor. From that day on in 1976, Fozzie has been buying jokes from him(a whopping 5 dollars a laugh, from a very reliable source) for his most important appearances (TMS, The Tonight Show, etc.).

Still, Fozzie is working with the Muppets on most of their projects. When he is not working, Fozzie enjoys going back to the old lodges during duck season, or rabbit season, to relive his past.

 

While I'm not sure there is a rumor that Fuzzy likes to return to his Lodge and perform cheerful service.(This message has been edited by Eamonn)

[Fuzzy Bear 12]

I had the day off, so I spent it in our woods that we purchased about a year ago. We have about four acres of land with little use because of the hills, ravines, rocks of all sizes and lots of trees. I have been concerned about some areas that receive the fairly frequent rain runoff that washes and erodes several stretches. It looks bad when first viewed. It has never been taken care of so now it is my turn to do something.

 

I took my bow saw and some rope. I cut up deadfall and pulled it up the hill. It was placed strategically to increase the friction and reduce the velocity of the water as it heads down a steep hill. I built several Check Dams and cleaned up a few sites in the process. I was tired and sore afterwards. I felt like I had been at an Ordeal. The Brotherhood was sparse but I enjoyed being outside in the cold and working with my hands. (I am generally behind a desk.)

 

I didn't think once that it was hazing. I just thought about what it would look like in a year or two, so it was fairly Cheerful Service.

 

Eamonn, if we keep agreeing, somebody will think we are the same person. I can do a pretty good Kermie imitation and/or Ernie. Fozzy's voice escapes me but I will work on it. Thanks for the history lesson.

 

 

Fuzzy Bear

[evmori 11]

So, one can become a member of the OA without going through the Ordeal? Wish I would have know that! The Ordeal I went through was something I would not have done if I had a choice! But I didn't! A Scout does have a choice to participate in a snipe hunt!

 

Fuzzy,

I have no personal dislike for the OA! I think the OA should bring back the old "tap out" instead of the vanilla "call out" ceremony used now! I endured the Ordeal and completed my Vigil Honor. I was honored to be chosen the 1st time and just as honored to be chosen the last time!

 

Ed Mori

Troop 1

1 Peter 4:10

[Eamonn 61]

In my book for something to be classified as Hazing there has to be some intend in the mind of the Hazer.

" Go look for a left-handed smoke shifter" When you know that left-handed smoke shifters don't exist is hazing.

Her That Must Be Obeyed, had me tear my desk apart looking for something that she had forgot that she had in her car. Both cases have someone looking for something that isn't there but only one is hazing.

We use a lot of ceremonies in Scouting,all I hope are done to mark the occasion of something being special. When the new SPL gets up to do an opening and forgets a Scout Law, he is hurt and a little embarrassed. There never was any intent of this happening.

I don't see the OA wanting to hurt, embarrass or cause any harm to a Scout. Without the intent there isn't any hazing.

Eamonn

(One of my many multiple personalities.)