Do Customers Count? -Summer Camp 101

[anarchist 10]

spun off from another thread....

COUNCIL and SUMMER CAMP DIRECTORS... LISTEN UP!

 

'Scouter wrote "when a leader tells me a neighboring council's camp is great and our Council's camp suck's", and that troop will never go back to councils camp....'

 

I wonder why we keep hearing this?

I wonder, because my troop feels that way towards our Council's camp...which is generally 'praised by all', at least, if you listen to 'Council' anyway...

 

When a unit has a bad time at summer camp, why do the Councils just blow it off? I have heard the same complaints year in, year out, from other units...many who go back to the Council camp year after year (because its easier to say they support council and its easier to plan and execute locally).

 

We may offer our boys one in-Council camp during their entire scout experience... Our primary reason? We seem to find that we are treated as valued customers not poor relations who have overstayed their welcome, when we visit 'out of Council'camps.

 

Do the Councils/summer camps ever listen to complaints? (One year, when I was mistaken as 'camp friendly', an assistant camp director remarked that "all some units could do was complain" and "scouts should expect to stand in line for popular activities (pool/firearms/archery) at a popular and successful camp"... like his. In the hotel industry (as in most service sectors the -real world of business) mistakes or problems are usually 'handled' with the idea of making and retaining customer/clients...Summer camps appear to feel that they can do no wrong and 'oops!' is an acceptable way of 'making nice' with a client who feels his scouts are getting less than a good experience. Well folks...it doesn't and shouldn't work that way...and it appears that more and more units are catching on! I encourage troops to look at other camps and test the water...

 

Please note that we are not really looking at 'program offerings' as the product, unless of course something (Eagle Base) is 'offered and then not delivered. Rather, service, staff training and attitude are the main topic here (we can all anticipate that 'camp X' will be a modern state of the art operation and 'Camp Z' is an old run down basket case) What we want to talk about here is the program that seem to have a good offering but still seems to screw it up and why they don't seem to want to improve.

I hope to hear from both sides on this...and has anyone had a camp make good on a bad situation???

[SemperParatus 1]

I can certainly see both sides of this coin. The Camp Director and Staff have spent countless hours and untold energy into making their program the best that they can (or think they can) given budget constraints and available resources. When a troop comes in (especially from out of council) and just 'gripes away' at every little imperfection, what response would you expect? Nothing is perfect and they are certainly trying their best (in most cases). You can please some of the folks some of the time, but you just can't please everybody all the time. Serious issues that result in complaints from all (or most) troops in camp should certainly be addressed as soon as possible, and I have seen that occur at many summer camps over the years.

 

From the troop perspective, the scouts are spending good money for what should be a quality experience. In most cases, they are getting good value from summer camp (have you priced other summer camp programs lately - wow!). However, I don't think attendees should be completely catered to in every way and for every complaint. In some instances, adjusting the program to accomodate one unit can have detrimental effects on other units.

 

I think most Councils have legitimate pride in their own camp and that comes across in their communications. They realize that improvements can be made in certain areas, but they try and accomplish those as time and money allow. Why would a Council 'bad-mouth' its own camp...no business would do that.

 

Our troop goes to a different out-of-council camp each year and our reception is hit or miss. Sometimes, we are welcomed with open arms (typically a smaller camp) and sometimes we are derided as 'just gypsies'. It really doesn't matter...we are there to have a good time and will do so no matter what the situation. Every camp has its good points and bad points - focus on the good and you will have a much better experience!

 

Whether we have a good or a bad experience has no real bearing on whether we will go back to that camp. In all probability, we will not in the forseeable future since we view summer camp as a chance to get 'far away' from home and seek new experiences. From a business perspective, why should the camp cater to our unit? As a businessman, I would devote my energies to those that put bread on the table - the troops that return year after year. But, I thank God that scouting is not a business.

[fotoscout 15]

We could probably fill volumes with this topic. The Harvard Business School or any other MBA program would probably have a field day with how we market and manage the customer service side of our camp operations.

In my travels promoting camp during the last six months Ive found that most of the bad blood associated with camp has more to do with the person doing the complaining than it does the camp! Stubbornness, ignorance, an innate inability to get along, a lack of consideration for others, and an unwillingness to communicate, have been the root cause of almost all the bad blood that Ive listened to. Consider this; two troops camping side by side, one has a great time, the other has a leader or leaders that are constantly in the camp directors face. Why is this?

One leader read the schedule, the other leader did not; One leader read the camp planing package and understood that some MB had prerequisites, the other leader did not;  One leader expected Scout like behavior from his boys, the other leader did not; One leader had a problem and reeled at some poor camp staffer then did nothing about it, the other leader discussed the problem with the camp director.

Then we get the thoughts expressed by SemperParatus From the troop perspective, the scouts are spending good money for what should be a quality experience. In most cases, they are getting good value from summer camp (have you priced other summer camp programs lately - wow!). However, I don't think attendees should be completely catered to in every way and for every complaint. In some instances, adjusting the program to accommodate one unit can have detrimental effects on other units.

Everyone wants to be treated as someone special....look at all the money I brought to your camp! First, most people dont realize just how much of a shoestring budget most camps run on. Second, program or personnel changes cant, wont, and dont, happen instantly at camp because we (and I suspect most camps), dont have the surplus of personnel to make instantaneous changes.

As Semper said, BS Camp is a bargain! A very big bargain. Those that expect 5 Star resort service, will be best to find a 5 Star resort that will accommodate the troop.

Sure we have our share of foul ups, noone is perfect. When decent people are involved the foul ups can become our greatest achievements.

[anarchist 10]

HI SP

"but I thank God scouting is not a business..."

Sorry but Summercamp is a business otherwise Council would not be pressuring units to support it.

 

Seems I was unclear...the out-council-camps in our experience almost always seem to try harder to please than the in-Council camp...the assistant camp director I quoted was at my council camp...and that is the rub...my unit should be part of their bread and butter...but they seem to miss that part of the equation.

Virtually every part of the transaction seems to be better out of council...from registration to camp check-out...and while some camp experiences have been less than we hoped for the universal response from my unit leaders to this 'thread/question' has been 'even the youngest staff' at out of council camps seem to treat us as valued friends...not bothers...several of our older scouts end up 'staffing' the following summer at the camps we visit...but never show this interest at "council camp" ...just wondering...

[Proud Eagle 13]

anarchist, is it possible that these out of council camps you are visiting are actually better camps?

 

It seems to me that if a camp is going to great lengths to provide a better experience for out of council people they are shortchanging the in council troops and ultimately undermining the camps long term outlook.

 

In my experience, there a good programs, facilities, and staffs, and there are bad programs, facilities and staffs. Those that are good work well for both in and out of council. Then there are bad ones that don't work well for anyone.

 

Now, in my council, it is pretty well established that some troops will almost always come to the council's camp, while there are other troops that you could offer them the world and they would still go out of council. On the other hand, the troops from other councils that frequently go to out of council camps are a potentially huge source of new customers for our council's camp.

 

So, there are some extra attempts made to get troops to come back that don't usually come to our camp. The troops that are coming back year after year we already have their loyalty. The troops that never go in-council are utterly hopeless. The units that alternate between in and out of council have the potential to become mostly in council campers. The out of council units that always look out of council and are visiting us are an opportunity to gain new loyal customers from outside our normal base of support.

 

However, this attempt to attract new customers, and keep the new ones, doesn't extend all the way through the system. There is no special training on "how to make out of council troops want to come back" for the new staff members.

 

Now, in my experience, there are times being out of council can hurt. Not knowing all of the stuff that in council troops do from experience. Missing all the pre-camp meetings. Those things can hurt, particularly at camps that don't usually host out of council units. My troop had some problems visiting a small camp a couple years ago that was only hosting 3 out of council troops that summer. The staff were friendly and tried to make us feel welcome, but after the, "hi, welcome to camp, glad you could join us" there was an inevitable, "how in the world did your troop ever end up coming to camp here?".

 

 

 

So, in conclusion, summer camp is a business. However, it is a business thats primary purpose isn't to make money, but rather to serve the Scouts, who happen to be its customers. It is also a business that operates in a somewhat unusual marketing environment. After all, does the experience of the customer really outweigh the opinions of the adult leaders and the long running traditions of the troop? In many cases it does not, and so service to the true customers (the Scouts) is placed behind service to those influencing the customers (leaders and parents).(This message has been edited by Proud Eagle)

[Trevorum 24]

From what I've observed, the overall quality of the summer camp experience that the scouts take away with them is mostly a function of two factors: (1) camp staff, and (2) camp food, with staff being much more important than food. This is not to say that program, infrastructure, and amenities are not important. However, the program is implemented by the staff and an enthusiastic, well trained staff that knows they are there to serve the scouts is THE key ingredient in making summer camp a fun and me

[Trevorum 24]

memorable experience for the boys.

[SR540Beaver 116]

I know I've told this story before....but what the heck, I'll tell it again. That really irritates my wife, BTW. When we were looking for a troop for my son to crossover to, we went to one of the more popular and "successful" troops in our area to visit. My son was off with the boys and I was visiting with some of the leaders. Talk turned to summer camp and their plans to travel a long distance to camp. They explained that their boys just found the council camp to be too boring. They then informed me that they had not been to the council camp in 10 years. 10 YEARS!!! How do you know your boys don't like it? How do you know that it has not changed in the past decade? Word of mouth? Often we hear what we want to hear. The camp has been running for about 40 years to my knowledge and has never failed to fill up. The SM has been at this troop for about 20 years. I wonder what the real story is?

[acco40 95]

First, the customers have to ask themselves what are they expecting out of summer camp? Last year, our council had a one day forum with the camp director to discuss improvements, what we liked, what we didn't like, etc. about our council camp. Here are a few of the things that I noticed:

 

1) the primary purpose of summer camp for most adults is so that their boys can earn MBs (ugh! they just don't get it in my book).

 

2) cost was not much of an issue, most would gladly pay more for better quality

 

3) a large minority just don't want a "camp" atmosphere and complain about such things as mosquitos, pit toilets, cold showers, etc. (It ain't suppose to be the Hilton!).

 

4) the boys like to do "stuff" - waterfront, fishing, shooting sports - being the most popular. The goal of earning a MB is not the primary reason to attend summer camp for most.

 

5) the first week of camp get the best out of the facilities (most clean, well stocked, etc.) but the most novice staff (first week screw-ups, etc.).

 

6) Summer camp experience is heavily dependent on volume of campers. For example, our troop always goes during the first week and have gone to the council camp for the past five years. The experience is great when the volume of campers does not stress the staff and mess hall. The council office should do more to even out "bulges in the snake" when it comes time to schedule units (i.e. the staff size remains constant but the number of campers fluxuates by over 50%).

[Trevorum 24]

Acco raises an interesting and very real dichotomy in his points #1 and #4: adult leaders and scouts often have opposing goals for summer camp. Adults want an easy structure for MBs and advancement while boys want to get away from home and have outdoors FUN! (if they earn some MBs along the way, that's OK). There is a balance between the two (and it's different for each troop), but I would rather err on the side of what the boys want. How many of us actually poll the scouts after camp? Are THEY happy?

[dan 10]

Trevorum

What good does it do to poll scouts, when all they have to compare is different merit badge mills?

I will disagree with what you think the adults want, because it is not what I want out of a BSA camp. And yes I am a adult, at least age wise.

[fotoscout 15]

Acco40 makes a point that Ive heard many times in the last few months.

 

Often leaders and parents are upset because the boys didnt come home with completions on all their MBs from camp. Of course this (wrongly) results in a negative impression of camp. Acco40 is correct that especially the parents become agitated about little Johnny coming home with partials.

 

I think that for the most part, this comes down to the camp staff. Some are stricter than others. Some are giving away the MBs. In reality everyone wants the boys to go home with MBs. For many the number of MBs is directly related to their impression of camp. Coming home with a basket full of partials is the kiss of death!!!!

 

Certainly there are many factors at play here, but at the top of my list is expectations. What expectations did the boys, leaders, and parents have as they left for camp? And again I go back to the leader who did not read the camp planning package.

 

But this goes for both our in-Council and out-of-Council campers.

 

[packsaddle 753]

Our guys are usually fairly happy with camp. We manage this status by 1)selecting the second or third week and 2)trying to match them with activities that are appropriate for age/maturity. The selection of the date affects air temperature (usually lower in early summer) and food quality (the cook had a week or so of practice already). Activities do depend on the quality of counselors but we try not to have the boys in MBs that are knowledge based. This means that they don't spend an activity period just sitting, bored.

[SemperParatus 1]

A very interesting read - The BSA Summercamp Outcomes Study.

 

http://www.scouting.org/nav/enter.jsp?s=mc&c=rr

 

[Trevorum 24]

Recently, we've been scheduling two summer camps (plus a high adventure expedition). Camp #1 is in-council and is recommended for 1st and 2nd year scouts while camp #2 is out-of-council and is recommended for 2nd year scouts and up. We select a new out-of-council camps every year or two. It gives everyone a choice and seems to work well. Some boys attend both.