The Speeding Scouter

[SemperParatus]

Excuse me if I bore you all with my mundane questions, I am sure you probably discussed something like this in an earlier thread.

 

In the past three years, we have had one active scouter (serves in vital role on troop committee and attends most of our camping trips) get three speeding tickets (one each year) while driving to or from camping destinations. In each case he was transporting several unrelated scouts. Certainly, the scouts being transported know about the tickets as well as certain adults (SM, ASM, some CMs)but no one has made a big deal about it so it is not general public/troop knowledge. There has been some discussions with this adult following the first two occurrences - mostly light-hearted suggestion to slow down. After the third occurrence, it probably requires more action. Should the Committee get involved? Should the adult not be allowed to drive scouts in the future? If so, can parents choose not to abide by the prohibition (he is good friends with some of the other scout/families and usually transports them to activities)?

 

Sorry again if you have already addressed. If you have, just point me to the thread. Thanks for any advice.

[FScouter]

I wouldn't put my kid in the car with him, if for no other reason than for the example he demonstrates. Apparently the committee is OK with this, seeing as how they sign off on the tour permit with his name on the back. If he gets three tickets just on Scout outings, how many does he get with all his civilian driving? Do you know that he has insurance?

[SemperParatus]

I don't know if the Committee is okay with it, since it has not been brought to the table for action yet? The Tour Permit is only signed by one member of the Committee (and the Trip Leader) so is not necessarily a stamp of approval by the Committee.

 

Should the Committee ask for a copy of his driving record? As far as we know he has insurance - should we get proof of that too?

 

I guess one fear is turning this into an inquisition? Should all drivers be reviewed in a similar manner?

[Eamonn]

Please don't tell anyone, but I have been known to have a heavy foot. So far I have never ever had a ticket. But it is going to happen.

The other night the fellow who is my ASM for the Jamboree had to leave a troop meeting early he asked if I would take his son home after the meeting. I have known the little fellow since before he was born, his mother and Her That Must Be Obeyed have been best friends since High School, the little fellow calls me Uncle Eamonn and my son calls his parents Aunt and Uncle. We have this stupid road where the speed limit seems to change every mile or so, part is 65 MPH, parts are 55 and parts are 50. Then I think that in some places it goes down as low as 35. It seems that I was doing 60 in a 50 and this little Lad went home and informed his parents that I was speeding, they of course told Her That Must Be Obeyed and she of course gave me an ear full. Needless to say my argument that it's a stupid road fell on deaf ears and the sad thing about being wrong is that you can never be right!!

As a parent I know that I want my kid to be safe. I would hope that the guys who I entrust with my son and heir would go above and beyond to make sure that everything is done to keep him safe. Still what is that they say about people in glass houses??

I don't want my son in a car with anyone (including me) who has been drinking, not even one drink. Some may find it hard to believe that in the 16 years on the planet he has never been in a car with a guy who has had a drink.

I do think that this guy does need to be taken behind the wood shed and someone needs to really explain to him the error of his ways in very clear no nonsense terms.

I do think that at times there is a difference between speeding and dangerous driving, while in most cases they do go hand in hand. This may not always be the case.

Just lately we have seen in our area new "Safety Corridors" they are stretches of road about five miles long where the fines for speeding are doubled. The posted speed is 45, I used to travel at about 50, but I now follow the posted limit. Sad to say not because I have become a better driver, I'm just really cheap.

Eamonn.

[Hunt]

I would just note that in most places, to get a speeding ticket you have to be going pretty fast. While I agree that this individual has to be taken to the woodshed (at least), perhaps an additional step would be to admonish all drivers to avoid speeding, without naming names.

[KoreaScouter]

Many if not most people push it from time to time; I'm no exception when I'm alone in my truck, I'm on my way to work at 0415, and there's no traffic on the highway. But, change that environment to a Saturday morning, lotsa traffic, truck bed full 'o stuff, and cab filled with other people's kids, and it's Driving Miss Daisy! It's not situational ethics, it's common sense. I don't smoke, but if I did, I wouldn't do it where my kids could smell it, let alone inhale any of it. I don't buy a 6-pack at the mini-mart in my uniform. And, I'm not going to put people in my vehicle at extra risk by speeding to or from a Scout outing.

 

I've written more speeding tickets than Carter has liver pills, and Hunt's right -- in most places, there are tolerance levels that permit a slight excess before you'll get stopped. Exceptions include, of course, school zones, construction areas, high-mishap areas, and those motorists who combine excessive speed with some other factor such as a mechanical violation, careless lane changes, vehicle loading, etc. Also, I don't agree with the notion that "everybody does it, he just got caught". I believe in the law of averages here. There are plenty of people with no accidents or moving violations. Guess what? They're probably good, safe drivers. Multiple tickets and/or accidents? Probably not a good, safe driver. This isn't complicated.

 

Multiple speeding tickets are a red flag that a committee ignores at their peril. Moreover, once a parent hands over a lad and a permission slip, the tour leader's judgment trumps two families' personal friendships or a chance of "hurt feelings". Also, bear in mind that if it was to or from an outing, multiple unit drivers went through the same area and didn't get tickets. What's that tell you? Granted, you may have a serial killer in your unit that you don't know about, but that's no reason to give everybody else a pass. You have to deal with the reality that's staring you in the face.

 

KS

 

 

[OXCOPS]

As a police officer, I can tell you that, for the most part, if someone has three tickets for speeding, they are going to do it again. If they had learned their lesson, they would have stopped after the first one.

 

I can tell you that the officers in my department won't stop anyone until they are going at least 13 over the limit. Some wait until 18-20. Those are almost automatic tickets and there really is no arguing with them.

 

I personally think that the people with the authority in the group need to pull this person aside and tell them that he will not be allowed to drive scouts or operate "official" vehicles at scouting events. The liability is too great. I don't favor lawsuits, but I can see a parent sue the troop and charter org. after their child is hurt in an accident when this adult was driving. Their attorney will say, "You knew of the past history of dangerous driving yet you failed to do anything about it."

 

Look out for the adult, but cover your own tail first. Better safe than sorry.

[anarchist]

easy solution?...quiet talk with driver about example and liability to the CO. Give him a chance...if there is an attitude problem.... recruit a new driver and let 'offender' think about it while only transporting his son...

 

That said, two years ago I was riding in backseat of a vehicle returning from a ski weekend and this (ASM)driver got two speeding tickets within seven miles of each other...(WEST by god Virginia -State Trooper and then a local officer). The recorded ticket speed was less than five miles above limit (while going down steep grades) for each citation...and trust me the driver was really watching after the first ticket...so it is hard to be too tough without the particilars.

[Eagledad]

I've never been accused as a speeder, but it was known that if I pulled the Troop trailer, it would get to camp first.

 

But there was the time coming home from a Troop Skiing weekend in New Mexico. We were just outside of Cimarron NM when we saw a huge heard of elk. I just happen to be going down hill while the New Mexico Highway Patrol was going up. Cimarron is home to Philmont and probably one of the few places where the highway patrol are not impressed by a carload of Boy Scout uniforms.

 

That was the most elk I've ever seen. That is my story and I'm sticking to it.

 

Barry

 

[SemperParatus]

Thanks for the advice everyone. Keep it coming.

[mk9750]

I can think of a number of ways I'd consider handling this:

 

1) In our Troop, we have PLENTY of parents available to drive. There's no way this guy would be permitted to drive any boy other than his own son.

 

2) If the committee determined, for some reason, that this person driving was necesary, the permission slip for the boys who could potentially end up in his car (the "friends of the family") would have an extra note indicating they understand their son was going to be driven by a driver with a record of speeding. I suspect that parental instinct would take it from there.

 

3) I was very surprised my next method was not mentioned by either KoreaScouter or EagleDad, who both have used this reasoning before. I'd relate it to the Scout Law. What part of the Scout Law does the behavior either support or violate? We all accept an obligation to show Scout Spirit in our every day lives, and when we fail, to try harder the next time. Acting as if an adult has license to break the law consistently (civil or Scout), and being permitted to mentor our sons should be incongruent with our policies.

 

Mark

 

ps - Welcome to the forums, SemperParatus!

[frank10]

How about a firm "I'm leaving first... DON'T PASS ME".

(works for the kids on the trail)

[Laurie]

Eamonn, point taken about people living in glass houses, but (you saw that coming, didn't you?)...

 

If I am willing to accept responsibility for driving other people to and from an event, I fully expect to be held accountable to following the law, to being alert and rested, to doing all that I possibly can to keep all aboard safe. If I'm not willing to do that, then I shouldn't be behind the wheel. Speeding is not safe driving, and I don't speed. In fact, by following the speed limits, I tend to tick off a lot of people--those behind me in the no-pass zones in particular!

 

The same applies to other areas, by the way, getting back to glass houses. I am a leader in the unit. I expect that I will be watched, that I may be trusted because the BSA is. If in any way I do something that does not live up to those expectations, then I expect that I will be at the least corrected or maybe asked to step down.

 

This leader would not my trust, and I'd suggest he haul gear if he'd like to help out. He needs to know why though, and that's been covered pretty well here. By the way, for a time we did not have high enough liability limits to drive others, so we drove gear and no youths other than our own son. There didn't seem to be a problem with that on the local tour permit, so we figured that would be a help to the unit but not place anyone at risk if an accident should occur with a vehicle that had lower than the recommended insurance coverage.

[SR540Beaver]

Wingnut said it first, but I'll repeat it. We always caravan. Yeah, yeah, Iknow the back of the permit says something about not doing it. I don't have a copy in front of me. We don't line up and ride each others tails, but we keep each other in sight. It has never been stated as any kind of rule, but we generally go down the road in the same order that we pull out of the parking lot. The SM pulls the trailer and leads the pack....or troop in this case. Pun intended. As long as he is observing the speed limit and the rest of us are behind him, no problem. It's kind of like the buddy system. This guy shouldn't be allowed to peel out of the parking lot and drive with the hammer down and beat everyone else to camp by 30 minutes. What if it is dark and he has a flat. Most of us will drive right past at 70 MPH and never notice that it is one of our own on the side of the road.

[Owl62]

While I am not perfect, I do try to comply with all laws, traffic and otherwise. Especially though when transporting Scouts. Besides being the law - and most are enacted for reasons - like public safety, it just makes common sense to be careful when driving! Driving is dangerous enough anyway.

 

I have been told in the past that my speedometer must be out of calibration because I was driving five miles below the speed limit. Funny how it was always exactly 5 miles below. On one trip, I was doing exactly the speed limit and passed by one of those radar speed monitoring trailers and it indicated exactly what my speedometer read. I have had 3 others pace me with their vehicle and all of our speedometers agreed.

 

It was and is clear to me that the individual telling me to speed up new that he was simply trying to get me to hurry up so we could get where we were going. I usually am driving the last vehicle to arrive. While I was once a designated driver for the CO van that we borrowed, I have had my name taken off the authorized drivers list and no longer drive that vehicle. Funny how that vehicle speedometer was also exactly 5 miles off. And I try to totally avoid transporting any Scouts anyway - I volunteer to carry gear instead.

 

Fortunately the person who always found me to be driving so slow has left the unit. I guess I was not fast enough for him.

 

Our Scouters now all agree to drive safely and obey the posted speed and drive according to local conditions.

 

BTW - there are plenty of jurisdications where the police don't give any leeway for speed. There is one state that I know of with HUGE signs at the state line warning all drivers that no leeway is given. I have known people who got speeding tickets for driving as little as 1 mile over the limit. From what I understand, in most jurisdictions, while a leeway may be considered, the police can write tickets or even arrest. I have heard of some states that REQUIRE that an arrest be made for certain speeds over the limit. Bottom line is, no one should count on any leeway being given to the posted speed limit.

 

 

I would be VERY concerned about a Scouter who has had multiple speeding violations - especially if he/she was convicted. And it does not matter if the violation happend in relation to a Scouting activity or not. The person, in my opinion is a safety hazard. Period. He is setting a very poor example for the Scouts.

 

I have heard of adults being denied registration due to speeding convictions. Not sure if it is true. It is my understanding that a Council Scout Executive can deny or withdraw a person's registration for any reason or no reason at all - with or without cause.

 

If it were me, I would certainly get the unit committee and chartered organization involved in the case and they might want to consider contacting the Council Scout Executive.

 

Just my opinion.