Starting to feel like a BSA "cop"

[starwolfmom 10]

Yesterday, my younger son had his first Bear den meeting after school. I work full-time, so the deal was that he would go to his den meeting (right there in the school) and when the den meeting was over, his leader would deliver him to the after-school child care program (in another part of the building). This was fine with me--one less meeting to get a kid to at night (I've got four kids, so we're go-go-going all the time).

 

When I picked my son up at 5:30, I asked how the den meeting went. Fine. Who was there? He named 5 or 6 boys. Who was there for adults? Mrs. Den Leader, he said. And who else? I prompted. Nobody else, just Mrs. Den Leader.

 

So--alarm bells are going off in my head. What about two-deep leadership? I know that the moms (and in at least one case, the dad) of some of the boys in the den are stay at home parents whom the den leader could have recruited to help out with the meeting. I'm wondering if someone bailed on her, or if she just didn't think it was important.

 

I trust this woman with my son. She's been his den leader since the boys were Tigers. But the point remains that she was violating well-established BSA procedures that are set up for the benefit of both boys and leaders.

 

Do I call her on it? Do I try and casually bring up the issue? This would be the second safe Scouting issue I will have brought up in a week. Maybe I should find out when the next committee meting is and bring up my concerns. I'm not sure if it's a matter of "don't know" or "dont' care" about the rules. I hate looking like I'm cracking the whip, but I'm a stickler for following the rules.

 

Any ideas for approaching this diplomatically?

 

Elizabeth

[Bob White 20]

Offer to help her select and recuit a co-leader to help share her load.

[Eagledad 2780]

Hi all

 

I agree with BW 100%, but I think you will find that she is not violating any G2SS rules. Common sense maybe, but not G2SS.

 

From the G2SS:

"Two-deep leadership. Two registered adult leaders or one registered leader and a parent of a participant, one of whom must be 21 years of age or older, are required on all trips and outings."

 

Barry

[EagleInKY 14]

Okay, I'm pretty strict about YP rules, and interpret them very conservatively (except for that whole buddy system in the tent thing). At a YPT last year, someone asked specifically, "Is two-deep leadership required at meetings". The YP instructor said "no". She went on to say that it was encouraged, and it was the right thing to do, but that it was not required.

 

The officlal language from the YP training is:

 

"Two registered adult leaders or one registered adult leader and a parent of a participant, one of whom must be at least 21 years of age or older, are required on all trips and outings. The chartered organization is responsible for ensuring that sufficient leadership is provided for all activities." bolded for emphasis.

 

I don't think the BSA or anyone else would encourage one leader at a meeting. I think it's worded this way so, if a den leader's assistant bails at the last minute, the meeting doesn't have to be cancelled. Therefore, I would still pursue getting an ADL to help, so that you have two-deep leadership at most activities.

 

Again, for the record, I do not recommend having a single leader at any event (meeting or otherwise). I'm just restating what was said at a YPT and what is contained verbatim in the web-based training.

[starwolfmom 10]

Thanks, all. Glad to know she's not violating the letter of the law. I think it would still be a good idea to have more than one adult at the den meetings, but I won't get on her case about it.

 

Thanks. Elizabeth

[FScouter 24]

One-on-one contact is never allowed. Multiple boys at the den meeting covers that angle.

[ScoutNut 147]

The Youth Protection rule to follow in den meetings, and any

[SR540Beaver 116]

I agree with fscouter. It is preferable to have more than one adult so claims can not be made against them, but having multiple boys in the room protects the boys. I needed to test a boy on Safety Afloat this week. Our meeting place does not lend itself to having the size for us to go off to a corner and work on it in sight of everyone else. Instead, I took him and a committee member to a different Sunday School room. An individual boy should never be alone with an individual adult. A mixture of the two is fine.

[dsteele 20]

Good advice given on the surface issue of two deep leadership for den meetings.

 

Let's talk for a moment (and not just to Starwolfmom) about "Starting to feel like a BSA cop."

 

I happen to believe that common sense has a lot to do with making Scouting fun for all -- the youth, the volunteers, the parents. However, when any one of us feel like it is our responsibility to be rule-enforcing police, we need to ask ourselves a couple of questions:

 

1) Is whatever I'm about to object to a safety issue? If yes, then proceed.

 

2) Is it a serious violation of BSA policy -- like one guy taking Scouts on a trip? OR is it a minor violation of a rule -- like wearing 5 years of quality unit patches on the sleeve.

 

3) Check the grand scheme of things -- is the issue there? IF not, it ain't worth the fight.

 

4) Will this issue, which seems minor at the moment, eventually kill our unit? An example might be an abrasive Assistant Scoutmaster. I've seen this one happen. The person loves Scouting and wants to make sure it's done right and doesn't mind making people angry along the way. Eventually he ticks off enough people that membership drops off (the parents don't want to be around him) and within a few years, the troop can barely recharter.

 

Okay, I'm stepping off the soap box now.

 

Side issue -- does anyone here feel like sometimes we're like those people on Deep Space Nine that the Bajorans would go into a trance and ask questions of? I think they called them "The Prophets."

 

Or are we the Collective of the Borg?

 

Sorry. I'm in a wierd mood this evening.

 

Unc.

[Eamonn 61]

I agree with the wise and wonderful answers that have been posted re: YP and the G2SS.

Looking at the "Feel like a cop"

Unc. Makes some very good and valid points.

While I was District Commissioner, some people looked on me as "The Enforcer". Some people were a little scared of me!! I did try to go out of my way to be a Friend and offer friendly advise. If I saw the shirt with a flock of Quality Unit patches. I choose not to say anything. I might include a friendly reminder in the Newsletter without mentioning any names. I have done that about Tour permits, Money Earning Apps.If someone was doing or had done something that was really dumb, I would pop in and have a word.Telling them what they had done was really dumb and inform them that I would be going to the next level to tell them that this must never happen again. The next level was in most cases the Pack Or Troop Committee.

If someone kept on doing what ever it was that I had deemed as being dumb (My deeming was based on breaking of rules or polices clearly laid down by the BSA, or the Law) I would become upset. My feels would be hurt and for them to continue doing or carry on doing what I had explained was wrong, amounted to them rubbing my nose in it!! Life has taught me that people you never upset are the bartender, your wife, and the District Commissioner!! In this case I would go to the Chartering Organization or the Scout Executive. As a rule we would have discussed the problem at a key3 meeting.

Eamonn.

[Webelos Rock 10]

Sorry to bring up an old post, but one thing that is not being mentioned here is the fact that cubscouting requires parental involvement.

 

You're telling me out of 6 kids, NO parents came? Den leaders NEED parents. I require my parents to come to each meeting. If they get bored, good! I could use help with a few things! Here, cut these up, take atendance, count these out... etc. I'm not running a weekly babysitting service. One of my mom's thought she was going to go get her nails done once a week. WRONG! LOL

 

A Den Leader needs to put his/her foot down from the very beginning. It's a group effort to run a good den. JMO

[ScoutNut 147]

The only den where parents are required to attend all meetings is the Tiger den. That is BSA policy.

 

In the other dens it is strictly up to the individual den leader. Some dens have the parents stay, but most do not. Most dens also have at least 2 leaders.

(This message has been edited by ScoutNut)

 

(This message has been edited by ScoutNut)

[KoreaScouter 13]

Two things:

 

1). When I was a Cubmaster, I was a little heavy-handed about ADLs. At recruiting night, we passed out adult applications along with the youth forms, and essentially told the parents that we needed two registered DLs or it was no-go. Rationale: Nobody's getting paid to do this as a full-time job; DLs have families, jobs, other responsibilities; DLs take vacations (and boy are they entitled to); DLs get sick; DLs cars are not immune to breakdown; etc. So, to maintain continuity and ensure we don't have last-minute meeting/activity cancellations, we need backup quarterbacks. To their credit, the parents understood and we had all the help we needed. You may have luck with the same approach.

 

2). Also, when I was a Cubmaster, I didn't have Den Chiefs from the Troop we fed into, so I never appreciated what a "force multiplier" they can be. Now, as an SM, we provide four Den Chiefs to two Packs in the district -- win/win for everybody. Now, a Den Chief won't fix any YP issues, since they're youths, too, but they're a tremendous asset for a DL who needs help. If you don't have Den Chiefs, I suggest you start making noise to the Cubmaster.

 

KS