Important question

[Bob White 20]

Foto scout you misquote me on several points.

 

Where in my post did I say that the Boy Scout handbook was a religious publication? I didn't, those are your words not mine.

 

"Next thing well be reading about is the investiture of BP as the deity of the WCS (World Church of Scouting)."

What possible statement did I give would lead to such a ridiculous conclusion? None, again your words not mine.

 

"Youll of course remember that a highly regarded national publication brought some of those relationships into question, and at the least, raised the specter of Nationals concerns about how those relationships have served BSA and what national would need to do in order to sever at least one of those relationships."

 

You will need to be more clear I have no idea what you are talking about.

 

"BSA is neither a religion, nor a religious movement." on that we agree, but if you are suggesting that I said it was you are again mistaken. If you were to accurately report what I wrote you would see it says a "religious organization". This is a fact which was atested to in court by the BSA. Religious obligation is one of the three personal dedications made in the Scout Oath. We support and encourage religious obligation in numerous faiths. We are religious, we are not however a religion. Nor are we a religious movement.

 

"Try to remember, this is a game with a purpose!"

I do, and I am fully aware of its purpose.

We are a character developing movement that has as one of its three principles a belief in, and duty to, God. That is undeniable.

 

"Games that are taken too seriously are harmful to all." While that might make a lovely needlepoint sampler I am sure, I am unaware of any specific evidence to that fact and look forward to you sharing the source of the research.

 

I take the mission of scouting very seriously and I think many parents and leaders do as well. It is unfortunate that you seem to have no problem with the "Duty to others" and "Duty to self" portioons of the Oath, but seem very uncomfortable regarding Duty to God. This is not a menu at a Chinese restaurant where you can choose one from column A and one from Column B. Reigious responsibility and faith are inseparable from the scouting program. That has been the case since before either you or I were scouts, and is no different today.

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

[scoutingagain 20]

Just to interject:

 

In it's friend of the court brief submitted by the US Justice Department in support of the BSA in the Fiesta Island case, the US Justice Department specifically makes the statment, " The Boy Scouts is Not a Religious Institution under the Establishment Clause."

 

The Brief goes on to make the argument,

 

"More over, a scouts religious beliefs are left to him and his family and are in no way dictated by the Boy Scouts."

 

"At it's heart, the Boy Scouts is a social and recreational organization dedicated to promoting good character, citizenship and personal fitness in boys."

 

"The Departments brief makes clear that the Boy Scouts is not a religious institution, but rather achieves its objectives of developing good character, citizenship, and personal fitness in young boys by focusing on a vigorous program of outdoor activities. "

 

The statments above reflect how the US Justice Department views the Boy Scouts. The full brief can be read from the BSA's legal issues website.

 

I think both foto and Bob White are correct. The BSA is not a religious institution. The US government in it's brief makes a pretty persuasive argument against the idea that the BSA is a religious organization. However, individual troops may be chartered through religious organizations and those religious organizations are free to use scouting as an outreach to their youth members and include more of a religious element in their program if they wish, as long as they don't conflict with the values of the BSA. Other charter organizations may choose to have less of a religious element in the troop's activities, again, as long as they are consistent with the values of the BSA.

 

SA

 

 

[Fat Old Guy 11]

" There is something very wrong if children are learning religion from den leaders."

 

It depends on the nature of the Charter Organization. If the CO is the American Legion then the DL shouldn't be preachifying because the Am Legion's reason for existence is not religion. However, if the CO is the 1st Baptist Church of Podunk and they created the troop and pack to serve as their youth group, then it is very appropriate for the DL to relate knot tying to scripture.

[LovetoCamp 9]

Never met an atheist in a foxhole.

[fotoscout 15]

Bob, let me go in order:

 

- My first couple of comments simply reflects the passion of your posting. You gotta lighten up a little!

 

- The publication is Newsweek.

 

- I do not believe that BSA refers to itself in any literature as a religious organization. That is a label that the courts have given BSA. On this Ill stand corrected if you can show me a citation from BSA publications.

 

- As for Games that are taken too seriously.I think everyone here in this forum would agree that we all need to keep tabs on the perspective from which we approach our Scouting functions each week. Sometimes its important to step back and take a deep breath. Most of us who have experienced life, know this to be true, no evidence is required.

 

- Sorry Bob, I dont get your last paragraph. Duty to God is a far cry from religious education. We are not anyones religion school.

 

 

By the way, I suggest that you go back and reread my comments about the Scouters Own.

(This message has been edited by fotoscout)

[Bob White 20]

"My first couple of comments simply reflects the passion of posting. You gotta lighten up a little!

 

Oh... I think you can be more specific than that. Here allow me. You purposely falsified what I wrote in order to support a conclusion that you made up. And had I not challenged you on it, you would have been perfectly comfortable letting it lay there and impersonate the truth.

 

Since when is Newsweek an authority on the BSA? Whatever article you are refering to is one persons opinion and has no bearing or force on the Scouting program.

 

"As for Games that are taken too seriously.I think everyone here in this forum would agree that we all need to keep tabs on the perspective from which we approach our Scouting functions each week."

 

Right..so in other words you made that up too.

 

"Sorry Bob, I dont get your last paragraph. Duty to God is a far cry from religious education. We are not anyones religion school."

 

Again you misrepresent what was written. Will you ever tire of that? Where did I say the BSA was a religion school?

 

Here let me break it down for you.

Merriam-Webster defines religious as...

 

1 : relating to or manifesting faithful devotion to an acknowledged ultimate reality or deity

the BSA requires this for membership by all youth and adults in Cubs, Boy Scouts, and Venturing.

 

2 : of, relating to, or devoted to religious beliefs or observances

Scout Sunday, Scout Sabbath, grace at meals, Troop Chaplains and Chaplains Aides, Scout Religious Award Program, Venturing Religious Life Program, Camp Church Services.

 

3 a : scrupulously and conscientiously faithful

On My Honor I will do my best to do my duty to God, A Scout is Reverent

 

You may not like it. You may not even live it. But you cannot deny that Scouting is religious.

 

Need more proof? Here is just one of several pages at the National BSA website on religious activities in scouting.

 

http://www.scouting.org/relationships/chaplains/index.html

 

The BSA is not a religion. Not a religious institution, Not a religious school. The BSA is however, religious.

(This message has been edited by Bob White)

[FScouter 24]

The Boy Scouts of America maintains that no member can grow into the best kind of citizen without recognizing an obligation to God and, therefore, recognizes the religious element in the training of the member, but is absolutely nonsectarian in its attitude toward that religious training. The Boy Scouts of Americas policy is that the home and the organization or group with which the member is connected shall give definite attention to religious life. Only persons willing to subscribe to the Declaration of Religious Principle and to the Bylaws of the Boy Scouts of America shall be entitled to certificates of leadership. - (quote from the adult leader application)

 

The religious aspects of Scouting are certainly not overwhelming. Part of the Scouting program includes the religious element. It seems strange that anyone could think that too much focus on religion is hurting the scouting program.

 

[Fat Old Guy 11]

" It seems strange that anyone could think that too much focus on religion is hurting the scouting program."

 

Perhaps it is because church going in our society is growing less and less and people are embarrassed by the reminders that they have an obligation to a higher power.

[scoutldr 732]

1 : relating to or manifesting faithful devotion to an acknowledged ultimate reality or deity the BSA requires this for membership by all youth and adults in Cubs, Boy Scouts, and Venturing.

Sorry, but I don't read that in the Declaration of Religious Principles.   In all of the court cases, BSA has maintained that they simply require the acknowledgement of belief that a "higher power" may exist, i.e., not be an "atheist".  That's a far cry from "manifesting faithful devotion".  Am I to deny membership to the young boy whose parents never took him to Sunday School, but yet allow the son of an Al Qaeda terrorist?  They are, after all, "manifesting faithful devotion."  I see a disturbing trend in the formation of sectarian scout units, in direct contradiction of the Declaration of RP...we have exclusively LDS units, a Black Muslim unit, and several units chartered by the Catholic Diocese.  We have a unit whose neckerchief sports the Cross on the back and they spend their meeting times praying and working on their religious awards...which are not even awards of the BSA.  I prefer to stick to the original model and run my unit to serve the needs of the neighborhood.  We have blacks, Puerto Ricans, Catholics, Protestants, and some who have never stepped foot in a church.  But if their parents signed the application agreeing to the DRP, I am not going to convene an inquisition to disprove them.  I will not add to the requirements.

[fotoscout 15]

 

too much focus on religion is hurting the scouting program.

 

Perhaps this needs a little refinement.

 

Too much focus on religion, inside the framework of scouting, is hurting the scouting program.

 

[Bob White 20]

"Too much focus on religion, inside the framework of scouting, is hurting the scouting program.

 

A personal opinion not shared or supported by the tenets or program of the Boy Scouts of America.

[Proud Eagle 13]

I am going to have to agree with Bob White and FOG on this issue.

 

I think it would be nice if every Scout at least had the option of experiencing Scouting through a program tailored to the needs and wants of their faith. That doesn't mean I want every Scout unit to be a religious ministry, but there would be nothing wrong with having a multitude of Scouting units that make take full advantage of the opportunity to help Scouts learn about their respective faiths.

 

There is also nothing wrong with a Scouting unit that does not affiliate with any particular creed, sect, or church. There is also nothing wrong with a unit that is affiliated with some particular faith being open to those of other faiths.

 

I am a Roman Catholic and my Scout unit was chartered by a United Methodist church. There was only minimal religious activity by the troop. In fact more often than not the Philmont grace was the extent of religious activity during troop functions, other than Scout Sunday. The most religious troop event other than Scout Sunday that I can remember would have been or last Philmont trek (we did a trail side service every day, quite unusual for us, but quite welcome at least by me), and next to that my Eagle COH (two prayers during one meeting!).

 

I have said it before and I will say it again. I really appreciate the way things are done a Philmont base camp. Every day one hour is devoted camp wide to religious activity and services. (7:00 p.m. if memory serves) All together in one part of camp there is a large Protestant chapel, a Catholic chapel, a Jewish chapel, and an LDS chapel (I am not certain chapel is the correct word in the Jewish and LDS cases, does anyone know for certain?). During quiet moments in one service you can hearing the songs or prayers at the others (except I would assume the LDS, which actually has an enclosed building), but they are not so close or loud to distract from the service you are attending. It is in my opinion almost the realization of the Scouting ideal, that we can each be devoted to our own faith, and yet be united in the principal of duty to God.