Merit Badges - what if signed, but not earned?

[Mike F 10]

I just got back from Troop Committee meeting.

Sounds like some of our guys got credit for Metallurgy MB at Winter Camp, but our resident counselor in Metallurgy MB says theres no way that they could have really met all of the new (and more stringent) requirements the camp simply doesnt have the equipment.

I recommended our counselor check into it, ask the scouts how they met each requirement. Then if it becomes clear there were too many corners cut, the troop in essence tell the guys they really got a partial and need to do some more work to complete requirements A & B.

 

Some committee members said that if a certified counselor had signed it off as complete, we (the Troop) didnt have the authority to withhold the MB. (Apparently they had fought this issue on different MB a few years ago and lost.) I cant believe this is accurate. Any feedback?

 

What we decided to do was have our counselor sit down with the scouts to go over the requirements to ask how they personally met each one. If theres a problem, hell ask the guys if they really completed all of the requirements successfully and have the right to receive the MB. If they agreed they have not, hell work with them to help them complete the missing requirements. But if the guys (or more likely, their parents) insist they have a signed MB card and expect to receive the MB at CoH later this month, theres nothing more we can do about it.

 

One entanglement: The camp was out of council, so we dont have our normal chain (District Advancement Chairman, etc.) to work through.

 

Thanks in advance for your comments.

 

[Proud Eagle 13]

Several years ago at summer camp the SM of my troop was quite suprised to find out about what some of the scouts had supposedly earned. The completed merit badges for the kid that didn't go to camp were amusing. (He had registered for camp and badges but couldn't go.) The completed badges for the kid that went home mid week were also amusing. Just because someone signed a piece of paper saying something doesn't mean it is so. Counselors sign off on things by mistake, others just don't care and sign off on anything. Other times I have seen sytems used that generated computerized reports on badges and some office staffer made a mistake and credited someone for something the counselor didn't.

 

In 2003 at camp we kept a very close eye on this issue. The three adults on the trip consulted the youth about progress in the badges. We also talked to the counselors of every badge to find out what would probably be finished at camp, what would need to be finished after camp, and other such details. When we got the paperwork from the camp office we reviewed the information with each Scout to make certain that what was on paper agreed with what we had been told and with what the Scout actually did. This allowed us to quickly correct the small number of errors before departing the camp. (All mistakes were related to paperwork processing in the camp office.)

 

I would say you are on track with your solution of having a registered counselor sit down with the Scouts and find out what was actually done during this winter camp and work out a plan for completing the badge. Hopefully the Scouts will be honest about what they have done even if whoever signed the cards was not. Though the best outcome would be that it is discovered that the requirements really were completed in some way, but I wouldn't count on it.

[LauraT7 13]

The merit badge counselor has the responsibility to see that he/ she follows the badge and that the boy covers the requirements as written. The counselor cannot ADD, DELETE or change the requirements.

 

Neither does the troop, SM or committee have anything to say about how a boy earned a badge. It is not under their jurisdiction.

 

About the only thing you CAN do is to make a formal complaint to the camp and it's council. You can choose to not send you troop to that camp again - but if you DO go to that camp, you can't tell the boys that they can't take certain badges - or that your troop will not accept badges earned there.

 

another thing you can do is have a SM conference with the boys who received credit. Point out that a Scout is Trustworthy, and Obedient. He promised to 'do his best ... to keep himself... morally straight. Is it honest, obedient and moral to take credit for something he did not legitimately do? When they admit, as they must, that they did NOT do the requirements as written, take them as a group and try YOUR best to find a counselor and the means to get them the opportunity to REALLY do the badgework, ASAP. After all, they chose the badge because they were interested - they WANTED to do those projects and requirements and were cheated out of them by a poor counselor! Metalworking counselors are hard to come by - and the badges are already signed off - so finding an actual counselor is not as important as giving the boys the opportunity to complete the badge requirements to THEIR satisfaction.

 

When they do, they will have gotten much more out of that badge than metalworking knowledge!

 

 

 

the camp we went to this summer is out of our council also - and they also offer Metalworking. they can cover pretty much everything except the welding requirements (don't quote me, i'm not an expert on that badge) but they say that right up front in their literature.

 

for every badge, they list what they can and cannot do at camp and what must be done before camp if they want to get the WHOLE badge instead of a partial.

 

On the other hand, as a badge counselor myself, I was very dissapointed in some of their 'counselors' who were not adequately trained themselves. The camp counselors often added to, changed or 'bent' the requirements to suit themselves or the camp.

 

One required the boys to bring a note from a parent or bring one of their unit adults down to 'verify' that the boy had participated in plays, done speeches at school, played an instrument, sang in choir, various things like that that could not be completed at camp - all relating to the 'arts' badges - theatre, public speaking, etc. This info was NOT disclosed prior to camp, and our boys were lucky that I am a substitute teacher in our school district and VERY aware of what our curriculum requires. I know what speeches and reports are required at various grades and if our boys are involved in plays, band and chorus, I usually go to the shows and cheer them on, many of our troop boys are also members of my chuch, and they perform there as well - but I can guess that most ASM's would not know if their boys had acted in a play, worn stage makeup, played a band concert or sung a solo, etc.

 

 

On the other hand, My son took 'Leathercraft', as we don't have a counselor for it in our area, yet he had already done many of the requirements at a church camp we go to often that has a large leathercraft shop. After the 'arts' experience, I walked over with him to verify for the counselor what he had completed outside of camp. Jon had SOME of his work with him (he was wearing a belt he'd made and was using his knife holster (not a BSA kit) but he didn't have everything he'd done with him. That counselor said that he couldn't accept any work done outside of camp - he had to SEE the boy do it. Ok, we said, so where's the leather he can cut, tools to punch holes, the snaps he can put in, the paint supplies? Well - they only had kits - so we had to buy two kits which the counselor said would cover the requirements, But the holes & patterns were pre-cut, the snaps & hardware were already mounted, all Jon had to do was stamp them, lace them and paint them - and they were out of paints and stains. The counselor gave him credit for all the requirements anyway. He could NOT have legitimately done the required work at camp, they did not have the tools and materials! I let it go then, because I KNOW he has done all of the requirements, and more, elsewhere - but I also know that other boys who got credit for the badge, did not 'earn' it.

 

I did speak to the camp director about the discrepancies in badge requirements, as well as included it in my review of the camp. the camp director, and experienced scouter, did seem concerned. When we got home, our troop sent a letter to their council office as well.

 

We are not going back there next year, so I maynever know if they change it.

 

laura

 

[Bob White 20]

If the counselor is registered and approved to counsel that specific merit badge, then once he signs the blue card there is no other authority that can review, alter or deny it.

 

If you feel that the merit badge was administered incorrectly your only recourse is to have your District Executive contact the counselor's home council and verify that he was registered and approved at the time he signed the card. If he was then the merit badge is approved, if he was not then the merit badge is invalid.

 

But for the future, understand that no one in your unit has the authority to invalidate a merit badge once it has been signed by a registered, approved, counselor.

 

Bob

[Eagle Foot 10]

Bob White is right. If the counselor is not registured then the Merit Badge will not be valadated.

 

I am having the same important problem with a troop I started working with (that's why they ask for help)

 

The worst part of all of this is, it is not helping the boys get what they need to get from earning the merit badge.

 

There is a ASM in the troop who is serving as a counselor and signing off merit badges who is not registured for either or that paticuliar merit badge...nor does he have either job experience or advocation in them, he just decides this is what we are working on.----Can't do that----

 

My position on this is that the Scoutmaster is going to have to void any merit badge awards to those Scouts not being counseled by a registured counselor, and that the counselor follows all of the requirements associated with the badge. I say Scoutmaster because the committee is no longer...it has broken up... no one is willing to take on responsibility. (The Untrained)

As part of my duties (I am advancement chairman) I will also advise this... we have scouts who's parents have signed off on requirements...

 

The problem is they think they are still in Cub Scouts. The boys go to the Scoutmaster or advancement chair. and get a blue card then the merit badge counselor and they arrange the process.

 

The important thing now is to get on track now, what happen in the past is there, if an Eagle board reviews qualifications of merit badge counselors and finds someone was not qualified, you may have a problem. It is important that we do what we can to avoid this. For the good of the boys and for the good of the troop.

 

(comments by Eagle Foot)

 

 

 

 

[KoreaScouter 13]

Bob's 100% correct, and we've debated this before. I learned this the hard way early in my SM tenure, and realized that the only "quality assurance" check the unit gets in the MB process is when the Scout goes to the SM for the blue card, and the SM assigns a counselor. I pay particular attention to that step, because I know we have to live with the results, whatever they are.

 

KS

[Fat Old Guy 11]

" but if you DO go to that camp, you can't tell the boys that they can't take certain badges - "

 

Sure you can. The SM has to approve of the choice of counselor and sign the blue card before the Scout can begin work. If we know that the basketry counselor at camp doesn't do a decent job, we don't have to sign any basketry cards for camp.

[evmori 11]

Bob & Fat Old Guy are both correct! Something is gonna freeze over!

 

 

Ed Mori

1 Peter 4:10

[Bob White 20]

Cancel the freeze warning,

 

Although the SM can counsel the scout as to how he proceeds, the scoutmaster is not the authority in approving MB counselors, that is the responsibility of the District and Council advancement committees.

 

At the time the scout gets the blue card from the Scoutmaster, the SM makes sure that the MB counselor is registered and approved by the council. It is not the scoutmasters role to determine if a counselor is qualified once the council has approved them. If the scoutmaster has a concern he can share it with the scout and recommend another counselor, and inform the Council for re-evaluation, but the SM has no authority to deny the scout the opportunity to work with a registered, approved, counselor.

 

[LauraT7 13]

the BSA handbook, pg 187 says "obtain from your SM a signed MB application and the name of a qualified counselor for that MB" it does NOT say that the SM "approves" the counselor.

 

the SM might personally know of good and bad counselors and my recommend one he likes, but can you really expect a SM to personally know the quality of at least one MB counselor for all 100 + badges? I'm sure our area doesn't even HAVE counselors for all those badges!

 

I guess the problem comes in that the SM and troop 'should' check with the camp and council to make sure all their MB counselors ARE registered for the badges they teach, and the quality of the program before they send the boys off with blank MB cards.

 

I'm sure most camps DO register the camp counselors as MB counselors for their subjects, but there is no control over the individual 'quality' of their training or their consistancy to the standards of the badge from year to year. Some camps do a better job than others, but that can change with staff changes over the years, too.

 

Having seen the errors that can be made at camp regarding the reporting and collecting of merit badge card information, I would tend NOT to trust their paperwork skills, however. I have seen loads of errors in badge credit at the end of camp, both in camps that used the Blue cards and in ones that used some other recording system. Some areas are really good, others are really bad, sometimes the office itself messes up. One year we had two 'Troop 159's' from different councils at camp - man did THAT mess thngs up!

 

The camps we have gone to generally have the head counselor or two for an area as the actual 'badge counselors' who are registered to sign off, while other camp counselors may work and teach under their direction and guidance. they do tend to be more stringent and concientious in the waterfront areas that require more extensive staff training - life guarding and swimming, which are Eagle required and other 'eagle required' badges - like First Aide & Env. Sci. - that may just be my perception though.

 

As for the district and council advancement committees approving Merit badge counselors - I've never heard of them rejecting anyone, or asking for further information or training - particularly with regard to a camp staffer. Perhaps if there was a problem they might revoke a counselor's registration, but I've never heard of that, either. In our council, you send in your application and never hear about it again - it's kind of a black hole that way....

 

laura

[evmori 11]

Start the freezing again.

 

I'm not sure what publication its in (I don't have my Scout stuff with me where I am) but it is written that the Scout obtains the name of an approved merit badge counselor & a signed merit badge card from the SM. So, if the SM doesn't want the Scout(s) to use a certain approved MB counselor he can assign another approved MB counselor!

 

Fat Old Guy didn't mean the SM has approval authority over who will or will not be allowed to be a MB counselor. He meant the SM has the authority to assign an approved MB counselor of his choice. Right Mr. Fat Old Guy?

 

Ed Mori

1 Peter 4:10

[Eagle69 46]

I find all of this talk about "Registered" Merit Badge Counselors highly amusing. There is no such thing in my council as a District/Council Merit Badge Counselor list and I doubt if they have ever had a Registered Merit Badge Counselor and would know what to do if someone tried to do so. Camp Staff Registered as Merit Badge Counselors is another hoot.

 

I commiserate with the original poster because I have seen the same thing happen. Kids come back from camp with a merit badge signed off as completed when you know based on the requirements that there is NO WAY it could have been. Rightly or wrongly we just adopted the practice of reviewing the paperwork and if a requirement was signed off that we know was impossible to complete at camp we don't acknowledge it.

[dan 10]

Eagle69

Do you also tell the scouts that they can contest this through the council?

Which would be the correct thing to do, wouldn't it?

 

 

[Fat Old Guy 11]

" He meant the SM has the authority to assign an approved MB counselor of his choice. Right Mr. Fat Old Guy?"

 

Yup. If I know that Mr. X just rubber stamps the Citizenship in America blue cards, I'll not allow any of my Scouts (yep, my Scouts) to use him for a counselor. Of course, I'll also file reports and wait for hell to freeze over because that's about when the District will do anything.

 

 

[EagleInKY 14]

I gotta agree with FOG on this one. As SM, I have the OBLIGATION to make sure scouts are getting quality counselors. Letting them get rubber stamped, especially on the major MBs, is wrong for them and for Scouting.

 

Eagle69 - I'm with you on the distrist list of counselors. I've never seen one around these parts.

 

The rulebook guys won't like this, but this is what we do at summer camp. We assign an adult (Committtee member or an ASM) to be our "counselor" for each MB that is taken. It is their responsibility to monitor what is being taught and whether the boys are really doing the work. They can do this by attending some of the sessions, talking to the boys, or talking to the counselor. At the end of the camp, we receive the signoff sheets from the Camp Counselors. Our adult counselor determines whether the requirements are "complete", "incomplete" or "needs review". We inform the scouts at the next troop meeting the status of their badge work. It is up to them to work with the troop counselor to wrap up the work. I think this is the fairest approach, and it helps the boys learn more effectively.

 

BTW, our council camp does not do blue cards at summer camp. They have a camp MB form that they return. I think this is intentional so that it is not the official blue card.