A tail of two units

[Future Games 10]

I've wanted to jumpinto the thread about playing unit commissioner but I couln't get registered with this site. The comment was made that a good program will keep boys in the unit. This sounds good and may be true in general and may not even apply to Cub Scouts put I'll tell my story anyway.

 

This happened a few years ago give or take a couple in my hometown. About 15 years before the mess started there was no Cubs Scouts in my town. A few people got together and Pack A was born and was fed by two public schools and a nearby private school. Pack A grew and after about 10 years had reached over 100 Cubs and things were getting rough because there were too many boys. But otherwise things were okay because most boys were going into Boy Scouts, the pack had a good treasury because they sold a trainfull of popcorn every year and stuff like the.

 

Somebody decided to split the pack. I don't know if that was the Cubmasters idea or the Districts or who. Anyway, Pack B was started and some dens went off to the new pack. The two cubmasters were concerned about growth so they decided to hold joint sign up nights and split the new boys between the packs. If a strong preference was made for one pack or the other, like if a brother was in one pack, then the boy would be put there but otherwise, they split them as evenly as possible.

 

Everything went well for a few years and both packs grew to about 70 Cub Scouts then things started to go bad. Very bad. Pack B's cubmaster left to go on to Boy Scouts with his son. Next sign up night when Cubmaster A said something to Cubmaster B about sitting down to split the new boys, Mr. B said "No way." He'd been running around all evening snatching up applications and he was keeping those boys.

 

The next year they still held a joint join Scouting night but the atmosphere was getting unhealthy. The leaders from the two packs started becoming like car salesmen in trying to get the applications from the parents. Unfortunately, B grabbed more again and the out of balance situation became worse. B was growing but A was actually beginning to shrink.

 

Pack A did everything by the book. They emphasized proper uniforms. They had weekend activities. They had summer activities. Almost every boy went to day camp as a Cub Scout or resident camp as a Webelos. The Cubmaster and Den Leaders went to Round Table and Pow Wow.

 

Pack B had become almost a mirror image to A. They never sent a single boy to camp. Uniforms were almost non-existent. Advancement was given out without requirements being completed notably the Aroow of Light. They didn't do anything during the summer and rarely did anything on the weekends because that would interfere with sports.

 

Pack B kept on growing. I guess it attracted more boys because new boys knew more boys in B but sometimes they stole them. Yes they stole them. If a Pack B leader came across a new boy who had signed up for Pack A, he'd use hook or crook to get him into B.

 

Pack A's Cubmaster went to the Unit Commissioner for help. He went to the District for help but no one would help. They just said that they couldn't do anything. The problems just got worse.

 

One new Den Leader acutally took his entire Den from Pack A to Pack B because he didn't want to worry about weekend activities.

 

Now both Packs were sending nearly all of their Webelos off to Boy Scouts. Mostly to the one troop in town. Strangely, most of the boys from Pack B drop out of Boy Scouts after one year. Right now, about 80% of the boys in the troop are from Pack A.

 

It was sad. Pack A dwindled until it was down to six boys. Still running a good program. Still going to camp. But only six boys. Those six boys left for a new pack. Not Pack B, they are driving 10 miles to get to their new pack. Now Pack A doesn't exist anymore.

 

Pack B, continues to grow and is over 100 boys but still doesn't send anyone to summer camp. They still don't do a summer program. They still have hazy advancement policies.

 

Why do the boys from Pack B quit Boy Scouts? We're not sure. Maybe the parents don't like their sons having to actually do something for advancement. Maybe they don't like giving up their weekends. We are worried about what is going to happen now that no boys are coming from Pack A anymore. Right now, we have about 50 Scouts but the troop is getting top heavy with older scouts.

 

I think that the troop has a good program. Almost every boy goes to camp. We send a big group to traditional camp and a smaller group goes to some high adventure activity. The boys pick the camps. We go camping just about every month at locations picked by the PLC. We have hikes just about every month in the fall and spring.

 

How do I fit into this? I was on the Committee for Pack A for a few years. Now I'm an Assistant Scoutmaster. It is interesting that of the 20 adults invovled with the troop, only 2 came from Pack B.

 

 

[acco40 95]

It was the best of times, it was the worst of times.

 

Sorry, I can't take everything at face value because with you being involved with "Pack A", I'm sure your glasses are slightly tinted. However, some troops and packs do go "by the book" and suffer from "rogue" units with respect to membership. Just remember, size isn't everything. Have I not heard that somewhere before?

 

One can follow the BSA guidelines and still have much leeway to shape the program to their particular units. Good luck.

[Fat Old Guy 11]

Stapler Guy said, "Sorry, I can't take everything at face value because with you being involved with "Pack A","

 

That's a nice way of calling him a liar.(This message has been edited by Fat Old Guy)

[sst3rd 129]

If Pack A was running a "good program" until the very end, why did that Den decide to move to a third Pack 10 miles down the road?

 

First problem was the "joint join up" nights. Should have always been separate as each Pack developes its own character.

 

Second problem was giving up going to the Unit Commissioner and then the District. If the situation you describe is anywhere accurate, the Council would have jumped in there. They don't like Packs to fold.

 

It's obvious why Scouts from Pack B were quiting the Troop after a year. You already knew the answer. It's because the Cubs from Pack B were getting an incomplete poorly executed Scout program. They graduated into the Troop, and didn't care to make the commitment to the Troop program because they didn't have to do it at the Cub Scout level.

 

Always sorry to see conflicts like this. It's always the adults that screw things up, and the Scouts suffer the consequences.

 

Hope things have been corrected (training????).

 

sst3rd

[Bob White 20]

I think sst3rd has made a pretty good overall evaluation based on what little we know. I would also agree with Acco40 that unless you are sharing cold statistics it is almost impossible to be a key player on one of the sides and be able to give an unbiased account of the personalities and events.

 

I have never seen a good reason to divide a good unit. A unit should be allowed to grow as large as it can and still be able to deliver a quality program. But that is a decision for the Chartering Organization to make. We are there on their bequest to deliver the program. Whether we deliver it to 50 or to 100 should not affect us as leaders.

 

I have no problem with multiple units in a community but the charter organization should be able to have access to enough youth to make the unit viable. Sharing recruitment night at the same school is seldom a good idea.

 

I think sst3rd makes a good point about the boys who left A for a third pack. That is not a problem that pack B caused. That is a sign of internal problems in A.

 

I am really sorry to see the string of events that affected your scouts. I am surprised that your local commissioner service refused to get involved. This is the kind of situation that they are there to assist with.

 

My recommendation at this point would be to disassociate yourself with troop be. Do not recruit at the same time or location. Consider other avenues where eligible youth members can be reached for recruitment. Keep your attitude positive and your program fun.

 

If you build it, they will come.

 

Best of Luck,

Bob White

 

 

 

 

[Future Games 10]

Why did the one den move to the pack down the road? Reasonalble question, they didn't like being a pack of one den. What is better for the boys to be part of a larger pack or to be their old pack but the only boys in the pack? A pinewood derby for 6 or 8 boys can't be much fun.

 

The joint sign up night was thought up in the spirit of cooperation. The two packs met at the same school and drew from the same group of people. If they had separate sign up night from the start, would the parents be willing to go to two different events to figure out which pack to join? I know that I wouldn't have. When my son joined Cub Scouts one pack was the same as the next. Maybe it would be different if one pack met at one school and the other met at another school.

 

Bob White said that units should be allowed to grow as long as they feel that they are provinding a quality program. That's why Pack A spilt the leaders didn't feel that they could provide a quality program for more boys. Maybe they shouldn't have split but let a new pack form and try to recruit. The charter organization didn't care about the split they were pretty hands off, just signing the papers.

 

I think that my story is unbiased. I didn't give opinions. It is a fact that B doesn't emphasize the uniform. It is a fact that B doesn't have weekend activities. It is a fact that B sent exactly zero boys to camp in at least five years. It is a fact that advancement was loosey-goosey. All of the boys from Pack B had their Arrows of Light but it became known that they didn't complete the requirements. That came out because when they were new boy scouts they not only didn't know the Scout promise but didn't even know what it was.

 

Traing? For pack B? They haven't sent anyone to Roundtable in a year. Seriously. A year. Most training takes place on weekends and they don't do weekends.

 

As a troop we are trying to work with Pack B to get their Webelos program working better but we are being met with resistance or maybe outright rejection. As I said, most of the adults with the troop are from Pack A and we are seen as by the book nuts in uniforms. Okay maybe that's opinion. But they are resisting any effort to work with them. Inivatitions to troop events are rejected. That weekend thing again.

 

Why didn't the district get involved? Maybe because they weren't losing any boys. the district exectutive says that 32% of the available boys are cub scouts.

 

Anyway it is all over. Pack A no longer exists. Pack B is going strong but not providing a good program. Now the troop is faced with damage control because the only pack left in the area is pack B.

 

[Bob White 20]

Hi Future games,

I can't believe I'm up this late but the flu is not allowing me to sleep very well.

 

Your downfall was in splitting the unit. That part is probably pretty clear to everyone by now. If your unit has grown to the size that reaches the maximum abilitiy of your resources, the answer is is not in splitting the unit. The answer for the pack would have been to stabilize the membership by recruiting only as many Tigers as you have outgoing Webelos.

 

The answer for the District is to find a new Chartering Organization in the community and start a new pack with new leaders. Then asking your Pack to volunteer to help mentor them.

 

But don't break up a unit that works.

 

When Pack B was formed did they have the same charter organization as Pack A?

 

I think I understand what you are trying to tell us, that good units can fold. But honestly Future Games that is very, very, very, rare.

You guys were doing fine until you messed with the recipe. At that point you opened yourself up to all kinds of conflicts.

 

And as far as Pack B goes, their time is limited. A program such as you describe implodes from lack of substance. It may take as much as three years but if they do not change they will collapse.

 

Bob White

[CubsRgr8 10]

Future Games, where was the charter organization in all of this?

[evmori 11]

It seems the downfall was not splitting up the unit but a greedy CM who didn't want to play nice.

 

Ed Mori

1 Peter 4:10

[Twocubdad 665]

I tend to think the shenannigans at Roundup night were a small part of the problem. However, here's how we prevent that in our district.

 

Having more than one pack (sometimes several) recruiting at the same school is the norm for us -- we tend to have very large elementary schools. In those situations, we try to have someone from the district committee or commissioner service serve as the host for the event. They do a short program for the boys, introduce the folks from the various packs and then direct families to the registration tables. Everyone always plays together nicely. We let the packs know upfront that one of the rules for the evening is no soliciting. Most of the families have some idea what pack they want to join anyway.

 

Although I'm also committee chairman for one of the packs, I've been a Roundup host for three years now. I know the guys at the other pack and work with them at day camp. Prior to Roundup night, we work together to do promotions at the school. I make a point of noting that both packs run the same Cub Scout program and do the same sorts of activities. The most important difference between the two is meeting times and I encourage parents to register with the pack that best fits their schedule. I'm careful to keep my comments balanced (although I know for fact certain that our pack is a whole lot better than theirs. ) Invariably, we end up doing some horse trading during the night, trying to find dens with space that meet on the nights convenient for the new families.

[Eagledad 2797]

Happy New Year All

 

Boy, I had to read this a couple of times to figure out what the question was. I have to say, at first I thought you were talking about two packs in Edmond Oklahoma because the first two thirds of your story was how I was dragged into scouting.

 

Anyway

 

>>We are worried about what is going to happen now that no boys are coming from Pack A anymore.

[Future Games 10]

Eagle Dad, I wasnt really asking a question. I just wanted to tell the story to show that sometimes "program, program, program" isn't het answer.

 

There were many problems but none that I think are related to how Pack A ran their program. Someone said that there was a greedy Cubmaster since the one Cubmaster didnt stand by the original plan.

 

I guess that Im still involved in the mess because teh future of the troop is teied to how well Cub Scouts are run in town.

 

You said to identify the dens that need help and help them. The problem is that they don't want help and wont accept it.Maybe the change in Cubmaster next year will help the situation.

 

 

[Eagledad 2797]

>>You said to identify the dens that need help and help them. The problem is that they don't want help and wont accept it.

[NeilLup 13]

I'm going to risk some serious flames here. That's OK.

 

BP supposedly proposed an additional point of the Scout Law "A Scout is not a fool." By this, he meant that a Scout does not let his following of the Oath and Law become so mechanical and rigid that his actions become predictable and others can take advantage of him by putting him into a situation where his following of the Oath and Law will work to his disadvantage.

 

Or as I learned very long ago in a college course in group dynamics, talking about collaborative and competitive strategies, "Applying a competitive strategy in a collaborative situation is cynicism; applying a collaborative strategy in a competitive situation is naivete."

 

Pack A was naive.

 

I have carefully read the Oath and Law and nowhere does it say that being a tough competitor is precluded. At one time, the words "a friend to all and a brother to every other Scout" were included. But those people I know who have brothers not uncommonly fight and compete pretty hard with them.

 

It was clear that Pack B was targeting Pack A. It also appears that Pack A chose not to defend itself against the attack.

 

That there were two Packs with totally different programs is a good thing. It gives kids and parents a choice. Sadly for Pack A, it appears that the youth and parents have voted with their feet. And from your description, it would appear that Pack A certainly looks more like the kind of organization one would see in training films, Boy's Life, Scouting magazine, etc.

 

That takes a lot of work and a lot of organization. Is it possible that it was becoming too much work for the next generation of parents. Also, is it possible that Pack A's leadership was perceived as less welcoming, less accepting and more "You vill do it dis vay!"

 

Finally, comes the saying "Fool me once, shame on you; fool me twice, shame on me!" If the leadership of Pack B played these tricks, Pack A should have tolerated it precisely once. After that, no joint activities, no joint sign up night and an aggressive marketing program both to recruit new boys and parents and to encourage boys and parents who were dissatisfied with Pack B to consider Pack A. With the program of Pack A, I can see how they could have been made extremely exciting to boys and parents.

 

But, and forgive me for saying this, it sounds as if Pack A thought that their program was enough and they weren't hungry and welcoming. And Pack B was hungry. And it sounds as if they still are.

 

Ready now for incoming flaming.

[Bob White 20]

No flame NeilLup, just a correction.

Although B-P had considered adding "A Scout is not a fool" as the eventh point of his original 10, his intention was not anywhere near what you said it was.

 

BP was referring to the idea that a scout does not do anything he knows is illegal, or unhealthy. In B-P own writings he says that he decided against it because he figured that a boy smart enough to base his life on the Scout Oath would be smart enough to stay away from anything that was unhealthful or illegal or both.

 

I have no idea where you came up with your explanation, but it has nothing to do with what BP said.