Honor Camping Societies...

[scoutldr 732]

There was a rumor a while ago that all Lodge numbers were going away due to all of the mergers. Anyone have an update?

[srisom 10]

National no longer recognizes Lodge Numbers. Now Lodges are listed as part of the Council. The only number recognized is the number for the Council.

 

Lodges can continue to use the numbers, but it means nothing to National.

 

This is due to the mergers and desire to keep the lower number. The numbers used to be tied to the council and meant something, but with the mergers they felt the numbers held no significance.

 

They many times do to members, just not to National.

[STChief05 10]

Hey folks,

 

I jsut kinda stumbled onto this forum by accident, but I am glad I did. I am the youth chief for the Tribe of the Silver Tomahawk, formerly OA lodge 80. I have seen a lot of posts talking about our tribe, some of them fairly accurate, some missing some details. I'm not going to try and put all I know about the tribe onto this board, because I would probably just ramble on and on and not make any sense. If anyone has any questions, from how we juggled both OA and Mic-o-say to what our retention rate is, whatever, let me know and I'll do my best to either answer it straight up or find it out for you.

 

Yours in Brotherhood,

Chris Walljasper

Chief of The tribe of the Silver Tomahawk

[Proud Eagle 13]

I have been interested in MOS, and its advantages and disadvantages relative to OA. I have a relatively good understanding of OA, and of the local Lodge, and there are certainly good things and bad things about both OA, and the local attempt to deliver the OA program. However, MOS is mostly a mystery to me. Certainly that seems to be intentional, and I understand the desire to maintain myster (just as the OA seeks, often without success, to maintain the mysteries surrounding its ceremonies), yet I wonder if perhaps a greater understanding, at least on a limited basis, would serve the greater good. Perhaps some of us dedicated OA types could even learn something from other honor societies that could improve the experience of Scouts in our areas. After all, if you are only exposed to OA, pretty soon you start to think of HCS only in terms of OA. Its sort of a cant see the forest because of the trees (or tree, in this case) situation.

 

I am also interested in how the co-existance of the now seperate groups is working. Do the groups end up repeating alot of the same things, or do they do seperate, yet complimentary things? I think many dedicated OA types are worried when they hear about a new HCS because they are afraid it will take away from the OA experience, or will end up being unecessarily competitive. If the two groups are working side by side and are on good terms with each other, that would likely reasure OA members about the possibility MOS or a local camping society starting in their area.

 

Though perhaps my greatest curiousity is how exactly things were handled during the time you guys attempted to be both OA and MOS. I have no particular problem with MOS, I just can't see how you could very well blend OA with much of anything. It just doesn't seem to be set up to be changed very much. The ceremonies and inductions process are intended to be delivered as written, not as per the local preference.

 

Anyhow, any information you would be willing to share either on the board, or privately, would likely be quite interesting at least to this particular Arrowman.

 

 

[WAKWIB 107]

Proud Eagle,

I can't write a detailed post at this time, but I can take a minute to answer some of your questions. OA and MOS have lived side by side in the Heart of America Council (Kansas City Metro Area) for about 30 years. The Tribe of Mic-O-Say began in the KC Area Council in 1929 at Camp Dan Sayre, and the next year moved to Camp Osceola (now the H. Roe Bartle Scout Reservation).It originated with H. Roe Bartle when he was Executive of the Pony Express Council in St. Joseph in '25 and he imported it to KC when he became Executive here. The Tamagonit Lodge #147 of the Order of the Arrow began in '39 at Camp Naish in the Kaw Council in Kansas, just across the state line. The two councils merged in the mid-seventies, and for a long while there was still a lot of seperation, the Missouri troops went to the Bartle reservation and did MOS only, the Kansas troops went to Camp Naish and did OA only. However a lot of the Kansas troops began to go to Bartle, and attendance at Naish dropped considerably. Now they have 3 sessions of summer camp with only about 200 Scouts in attendance, whereas Bartle contains 3 seperate camps each running 6 sessions with about 500 scouts in each camp each session. For a while many OA's from Kansas were becoming MOS, or simply ignored OA altogether in favor of MOS and gradually the Lodge began to decline a lot. However, at some point in the early '90's the Lodge began to host induction weekends at Naish in the Spring and Fall so if you were elected you could go through the Ordeal during one of those times even if your troop camped at Bartle. The Lodge is growing in numbers by leaps and bounds since many of the Missouri Troops are taking advantage of this program. I have seen a positive reaction to this on the part of the kids because the age and rank requirements are lower for OA than MOS so they have a chance to participate in something "extra" earlier in their Scouting experience. For a guy like me who grew up in MOS and was very, very active in it when I worked on camp staff in the '70s, going through the Ordeal now as an adult, was a new revelation for me, and I look forward to doing the Brotherhood process in the near future. Having come of age during the merger time, I can attest to the fact that there was quite a bit of friction from the factions on both sides of the state line, but it has worked out very well in the long run. OK...this took a little longer than a minute!!...but if you have any more questions I'd be glad to reply.

 

WAKWIB

 

[Proud Eagle 13]

Thank you for the information. That fills in a few of the blanks I had.

 

I suppose what probably makes MOS and OA at least partially compatible in the current day is the fact that most lodges are holding inductions outside of the summer camp sessions, while MOS seems to be sticking to an almost purely summer camp based system. Your account certainly seems to support that idea.

[WAKWIB 107]

OA is to many of us long-time MOS members something of a unique thing. It is THE national society, and for many years we in Kansas City, MO were sort of encased in a bubble...focused solely on our own program. OA affords many opportunities for youth to experience a different level of Scouting. OA is also different from MOS in that it speaks more of peer recognition. The candidates for MOS are voted on and approved by adults only. I do think that the Lodge here needs to do much more to get prepared for the large groups that attend the Spring and Fall induction weekends. My son describes these weekends as a "train wreck". I see his point. We witnessed the ceremonies done during a summer camp session, and the overall process seemed more effective with the smaller group. In terms of purpose and methods, each group definately has it's own distinctives. The MOS ceremonies are much, much more elaborate. A strong emphasis on costuming is part of it. Not only are the "main players" in Indian attire, but so are the candidates and many of the spectators. The MOS induction process takes place over a 5-day period, and a large number of the camp staff are involved in the various stages of the operation. It becomes something of a second job for them while on staff. So, even though it is adult led, those under 21 (both staff and campers) get to play quite a big part in it. A key factor in guys returning to camp is the oportunity to advance in rank and responsibility. It should be noted, since one of the chief criticisms from outside the Council about MOS is that it is adult led, is that many in Tribal leadership are those men who grew up in the program and have worked their way through various ceremonial responsibilities while they were kids.

[Proud Eagle 13]

OA inductions certainly work better with smaller groups. Often times multiple ceremonies can be staged in the same weekend to help with this.

 

Another option is to offer more choices on the dates of the induction. This also helps make certain more of the candidates are able to attend.

 

We had one kid that after the election, when he was told he was elected (our troop didn't attend Camporree, which is where call out was, and we knew the older guys were going to Philmont, not summer camp) and then told the dates, already knew he couldn't go through the induction because of other commitments he had made. Sometimes I think the amount of stuff kids do now is insane.

 

The last ordeal my lodge held was done on relatively short notice. (Less than a month from decision to hold the event until the actual event.) It was also held at a time we do not usually have OA events. So the number of candidates was quite small (less than 15), but the number of members wasn't really much worse than normal (probably about 35). However, the ceremonies were better, as were many other aspects of the weekend. All the problem that occured were much easier to deal with than at other Ordeals. (We frequently have Ordeals with 60 candidates, and 60 more members.)

 

Once the leadership of the Lodge figures out how to do events, and as the membership gets used to what their roles in events are, you can run an event with almost zero planning and still have it come out OK. I know this from a rather unfortunate experience or two, sure the events were OK, but they weren't great either.

[John-in-KC 311]

PE, Tamegonit Ordeal output is 1000+ per year. Induction weekends, the youth run 3-4 ceremonies of 100 candidates!

 

 

[John-in-KC 311]

Tamegonit had opportunity in 2004: Camp Naish OA Reservation is in Capital Construction, and LEC had to drop one induction weekend.

[Proud Eagle 13]

The challenges of inducting 1000 members per year would be quite substantial, I do believe.

 

I do think there are a great many ways to limmit the degree this creates a problem.

 

For example, the lodge could conduct a greater number of induction weekends. This would likely spread them out so there were fewer per weekend.

 

Perhaps a more practical approach would be for the chapters to conduct their own ordeals on the behalf of, and with the approval of the lodge. This would spread the work load of planning, preparing for, and hosting the Ordeal over a greater number of Arrowmen.

 

One final note, 100 per ceremony is really too many. There is a reason the quality lodge petition makes that an optional critieria, because too large of a ceremony makes the experience less meaningful and less personal.

[John-in-KC 311]

PE,

 

Normally, we run 3 induction weekends a year, plus induct at each of 3 Camp Naish summer sessions. We have 56,000 youth in all our programs, BTW.(This message has been edited by John-in-KC)

[Iowascouter 10]

I am new to this forum so feel a little sheepish posting big right off the bat but I think there are several issues with Silver Tomahawk that haven't been properly expressed or represented. I am personal friends with Bill Dorrell who's narrative on Silver Tomahawk Lodge 80 through the creation and destruction of Ka-Ti Missi Sipi Lodge 37 during the initial merger of the SE Iowa Council and the Sauke Area Council I am very familiar with and feel it is a very good description of the synopsis. I have also read the narrative on the flyingmember website and while it is fairly accurate up until the latest merger, I feel there are a few notable inaccuracies in the text.

 

If you look at Mr. Dorrell's text, what they did was to incorporate the MOS traditions into a program that was OA compliant, not to simply run a MOS program and pass it off as an OA program. The Silver Tomahawk program was NOT a MOS program, it was an OA program that incorporated MOS traditions. The LEC was youth and the Lodge Officers were youth elected each fall at a conclave. Adult advisors had no voting privleges at LEC meetings. The ceremonies contained all the pertinent OA touches, the legend, etc, they were very much centered around the meaning of the 4 fold ordeal and the 4 resolutions.

 

 

On the flying member website (http://www.flyingember.com/mic.html) I think the The biggest shortfall that I see is in the more recent history update. The actual arrangement isn't that Silver Tomahawk split off from OA, leaving Camp Eastman devoid of OA, when Black Hawk Lodge 67 was formed, 2 chapters were created. These are Maheengun and Silver Tomahawk Chapters who's members basically consist of the old Lodge 136 and Lodge 80 members respectively. At Camp Eastman, there is now an OA chapter AND a separate Honor Society called 'Tribe of the Silver Tomahawk.' In general, those in the chapter are also in the honor society. The ceremonies have been in a state of ebb and flow since the merger and as of this fall, STC was running OA ordeal at fall conclave while the tribal ceremonies were run entirely during summer camp. Tribe of the Silver Tomahawk is no more MOS now than it was before, continuing to be headed up by a youth tribal executive committee and officers. Unlike the description, there is still OA at both camps. The picture on the website is of the LEC officers in 2000, this was still when Silver Tomahawk was OA Lodge 80. The main thing I notice prior to the update is that he refers to the paint stations as 'ranks' and this is incorrect. There are actually only 2 ranks in Silver Tomahawk (Brave/Warrior.) Also, two sites are mentioned that may have been at Camp Eastman in the distant past but I have never heard mention of, 'the point' and 'She-She-Be council ring' have not been mentioned in the 10 years I have spent attending and working in/around CE (I am inclined to ask around about them though.) Those pictured are wearing both log chains and OA sashes because at that time, Silver Tomahawk was a legitimate OA Lodge. Members of Silver Tomahawk (before the formation of L67 and currently) generally wear their log chains as part of their 'class A' as well as any time they are at Camp Eastman.

 

Another post in this thread mentioned that there could be no easy correlation between the OA levels of Ordeal, Brotherhood and Vigil and the MOS positions. First off, vigil is only bestowed upon those that warrant nomination and are approved by the chapter and lodge nominating committee(s) and that is the way it should be. The rest is really much easier than it seems. The Ordeal year in Silver Tomahawk Lodge was also the Brave year. Upon complettion of a year as a Brave and the requirements of Brotherhood, the scout would be tested as a Brave (Camp Eastman knowledge, OA principals, Silver Tomahawk Traditions) and then promoted to Brotherhood in OA and the rank of Warrior. After becoming a Warrior, the scouts pass through the Warrior paint station progression much as they do in MOS based on the recommendations of their Troop Leaders and the approval of the Tribal Council their week of summer camp (made up of the officers and 1 older scout from each troop in camp, no adults voted on promotions.) There was no connection to Vigil from the Silver Tomahawk paint stations, if so deserved, any lower paint could be elected to Vigil just the same as any upper paint.

 

Because all of the Silver Tomahawk Lodge 80 ceremonies were held during summer camp, the conversion and return rates were very good. The Lodge 80 ceremonies were very active with nearly all youth members in camp participating in one way or another during the callout on Wednesday nights or the Brotherhood ceremony (for callouts from the previous year) on Thursday night.

 

If there are any questions that would be better answered outside the forum, feel free to email me kjmineart(at)yahoo.com

 

Kevin Mineart

Vigil/Sachem

Black Hawk 67/Tribe of the Silver Tomahawk(This message has been edited by Iowascouter)

[John-in-KC 311]

Kevin M,

 

As points of reference, what Kevin Carlyle refers to as "The Point" and "She-she-be" are places at the H Roe Bartle Scout Reservation by Osceola, MO:

 

The Point is a rock outcropping overlooking a goodly portion of Truman Lake.

 

She-She-Be is a council ring used for mentorship of Scouts entering or advancing in the MOS program. At Bartle, it is adjacent to the Point.

 

There is also a She-She-Be ring at the Geiger Reservation in St Joseph, MO (Pony Express Council camp and the other home of MOS).

 

HTH.

 

YIS

 

 

[Wolf with Heart 10]

I am new to this forum. I happenned to be doing a search for Silver Tomahawk Lodge 80 (of which I was a member). I have been in the Air Force for the past 6 years and have been unable to get back. Unfortunately the Boy Scout Troop that I belonged to, Troop 64 out of Lomax, Illinois has unfortunately gone the way of the dodo. I am getting out in the next few months and plan on returning to the region and once again hope to be able to help with the scouting program back there. I remember the good friends that I had there as well as the ceremonies. I was also a member of the Sasaya dancers (I believe it was Explorer Post 800 out of Burlington IA) as well which has also become but a memory due to a lack of involvement.