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Eagle92

Lying, Scouting Ideals, etc

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This thread was spun off from the OA private area in which a young man lied to get access to infomration on the OA.

 

I commented the following:

 

Yes a Scout is suppose to be Mentally Awake, but most Scouts expect a brother Scout to be TRUSTWORTHY, and not lie to them. By saying that you are an Arrowman when you are not, are you living up to that point of the Scout Law?

 

A Scout is also suppose to be HELPFUL, and by not spreading information that is not meant for them, or the general public around. How is passing around information Helpful, especially since you may not know or fully understand what is going on? Again how are yo living up to that point of the Scout Law

 

A Scout is suppose to be COURTEOUS, and respect the privacy of others and not go looking into things that do not concern them. Agin how is this Living up to the Scout Law?

 

A Scout is KIND, and does not insult others or hurt others in any way? How is insulting OA ceremonies, which you truly do not know anything about, Kind?

 

I don't think you have truly acted as a Scout.

 

To which the young man, replied

 

dudes, i think that the scout law is way to idealized. if either of you guys have eyes then you should look at you troop. do the members really all live up to the scout law?

 

My first thought was that YES the Scout Oath and Law ARE ideals that every Scout and Scouter should do their best to strive to follow. Like all humans, we are fallible, making mistakes, and do not live up to all ideal of the Oath and Law. BUT we need to always keep them in mind, when we make mistakes learn from them, and do our best to avoid making them again. That's what Scouters should model for their Scouts, that's what youth leaders like a troop's SPls, ASPLs et al; a ship's boatswain, a pack's den chief, and a crew president and officers should stive to model and live by.

 

The second thought was how can we as leaders help in instilling the Oath and Law, making it a viable part of our Scouts and Venturers' lives? The deception and attitude this young man has exhibited deeply saddens me, especially since he states he is his troop's ASPL (although he could be lying about that too) and is suppose to be setting an example for the younger Scouts in his troop.

 

Your thoughts?

 

 

 

 

 

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My first reaction is "WOW, REALLY?!?!" (yes I am shouting with incredulity).

This youg man has been infected with an attitude that I see more and more frequently of "if we can't be perfect why try?" Some of today's youth are so used to winnning at very thing they do, (they ALL get trophys now-a-days) that the thought of having to work for something larger than themselves or even sacrificing for something bigger than themselves, especially a high ideal such as the Scout Law is so foreign to them that it might as well be written in Greek. They expect,demand, and complain, they do not earn.

 

Eagle92, I agree with all of your points and as to your question, the best way we can help the young men in our charge, is to teach, and more imortantly, LIVE the Scout law to the best of our ability, admit our failings and continue to strive for excellence and ask the same of those around us.

 

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One thing that just struck me,

 

if either of you guys have eyes then you should look at you troop. do the members really all live up to the scout law?

 

With the example that their ASPL is, it is no wonder his troop members do not try and live up to the Scout Oath and Law.

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hey guys, this is the "young man" the you are all talking about. just wanted to say some things.

 

1. i really am the ASPL

2. i am now in my fourth troop, and in the first three when i was still a new scout, all of the members disregarded the oath and law.

3. what i mean is i think that the scout oath and law are to simplistic and idealistic. sometimes you have to violate theses ideas to get to your goals

 

wow i am glad that i give you guys something to talk about.

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sometimes you have to violate theses ideas to get to your goals

 

If you need to violate your own principles to reach your goals, either you have the wrong goals, or you have no principles.

 

 

 

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I was going to say that I honestly feel sorry for you since you do not have any principles or noble goals, but someone else said it, and i can't believe I fell for it;

 

 

TROLL.

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Guest OldGreyEagle

this is going nowhere, I think this needs to be closed

 

or not

 

(This message has been edited by a staff member.)

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Have I ever been in a Scout troop where everyone followed the Scout Oath and Law? No.

 

Have I ever been in a church where everyone followed the Ten Commandments and Golden Rule? No.

 

Have I ever lived in a community where everyone followed all the laws? No.

 

Something you will gain with maturity is the ability to see shades of grey. Striving for an ideal but coming up short is not a failure since there was never a chance of reaching the ideal. That's why they are "ideals." There is honor in believing in an ideal and trying to reach it.

 

Young people, and I'm guessing you're +/- 16, don't see shades of grey well. It's black or white. Either you're obedient or not; reverent or not. Reciting the Scout Law, but then driving 60 in a 55 or swearing when you crack your shin is seen as hypocrisy. It's not, it's just being human.

 

Teenagers also tend to believe the world revolves around them, as in, "I am glad I gave you guys something to talk about." You may want to note that we were well over 300,000 threads before you got here.

 

Yeah, poking the adults is a lot of fun. Been there, done that myself. Of course we only had flint tools and stick to poke them with. Be forewarned now you're old enough to get poked back.

 

Welcome the the adult campfire, fermi. Afterall, this is ScoutER.com, not Scout.com. We occasionally have youth members wander through. We try to keep the conversation Scout-like and kid friendly. Unfortunately, that, too, is an ideal. You may want to re-read the my comments on striving for ideals.

 

And we're going to ask the same courtesy and respect from you which expect of each other. If you have questions, ask. If you have a point, make it. But if all you want is to be a troll, you may want to move along.

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He said he lied to get the OA info so we have to assume he is proud of lying and probably does it a lot. I will assume he is lying about 90% of the time based on what I am reading and I will assume he is really not an ASPL but probably an EX. He is definitley a Troll but if he is an ASPL it is a pretty sad Troop. There would certainly be no pride and honor in belonging to a Troop with somebody like that in a POR and if I were a member I would lie and say I wasn't! The sad truth is his philosophy (i think that the scout oath and law are to simplistic and idealistic. sometimes you have to violate theses ideas to get to your goals) is what is wrong in the world today and why Scouts are so important to our youth. fermi91 may have high goals but I think he probably needs to get used to asking "would you like fries with that?". And it is nice to have a poor example to talk about because it does remind us why we put in so much effort, to make sure there are not more people like him.(This message has been edited by Hawkrod)

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I missed the original posts before they got deleted, but I am intrigued by the following comment, and if he's still around, I have some advice for our young friend.

 

>>>>the scout oath and law are to simplistic and idealistic. sometimes you have to violate theses ideas to get to your goals

 

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reply to clemlaw

 

1. i do hate to wear my uniform in public because it places me in a group with all of the other disrespectfull twerps in my troop.

 

2. i enjoy the outdoors aspect of scouting but not the "be a good person aspect"

 

3. i am getting something that looks realy good in resumes.

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You overlook the world this child-bozo inhabits. His schools teach self-esteem, feeling good about yourself, and "making the grade" as the most important goals. Lying, then, is just another tool to get ahead; it's cool!

 

"In the real world, you don't need to set up tents to have a place to sleep. You have a house, and when you are travelling, there are many fine hotels everywhere in the world."

 

When he gets older, if he gets older, his bosses may be non-American (increasing globalization) and not perceive lying & cheating in the same ways his peers view things. He will then definitely need to be able to pitch a tent as he becomes one of the homeless.

"too simplistic & too idealistic"? He stands for nothing; he is still a child thinking he should be the center of the universe. He hasn't, yet, any real purpose in life. People mature at different rates; he may have unknown brain damage or a birth defect.

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fermi reminds me of a Scout's Own I once participated in that was conducted by the 105th Glasgow Scout Troop.

 

In it there was a "skit" in which the UK was taken over and all Scouts and Guides were on wanted lists, kinda like OPERATION SEA LION and the Nazis.

 

Anyway, in the "skit" one young man is on trial, and he is in a Scout uniform. He's nervous, scared, and doesn't want to be executed. During the scout's trial, testimony from an assortment or witnesses testify how he did not follow the Scout Oath and Law, how he was a selfish wanker only looking out for himself, and having no interest in helping others, and not being an active citizen in his community.

 

During the testimony the scout constantly objects, only to be overruled by the judge. He tries to give testimony about how he was a scout, forgetting that scouts are getting imprisoned and executed, but is overruled.

 

Eventurally the verdict is "Not Guilty of being a Scout," and while the young man lives, he is angry and upset with himself for the rest of his life, because he knows he did not live in a true scout-like manner.(This message has been edited by eagle92)

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>>>>1. i do hate to wear my uniform in public because it places me in a group with all of the other disrespectfull twerps in my troop. >>>3. i am getting something that looks realy good in resumes.

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>>>>He will then definitely need to be able to pitch a tent as he becomes one of the homeless.

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