Unjust revocations

[jkhny 10]

Another thread elsewhere supports a volunteer leader who has a past criminal record but shown no problems in recent years. Yet BSA is throwing out long serving leaders who oppose "unethical" actions by their Scout Executive and/or Council Leadership. Tom Willis in Greater Alabama was thrown out of BSA the same day his charges of fraudulent overstatement were proven true. Ronnie Holmes - the SE there was caught inflating counts for the second time in 5 years. Mr. Willis is in court right now. Mr. Knaul cannot afford to go that route - something BSA counts on.

 

Four questions:

 

Why are these revocations occurring?

 

Why is BSA throwing out critics instead of responding to their challenges?

 

Why are volunteers FORCED to take BSA to court - an expensive and time consuming endeavor which few can afford - simply to be treated fairly?

 

Is this removal "ethical or moral"?

 

 

Note that BSA's own procedures do NOT support such removals. There had to be grounds or cause for legal action, misrepresentation or immoral acts for Mr. Knaul to have his membership revoked under "Procedures for Maintaining Standards of Membership" Lacking those grounds BSA regulations state a Unit Scouter can ONLY Be removed by his Chartering Organization. The Chartering Organization for his Troop opposes his removal as do a number of Scout leaders in his and other Councils.

 

Note: Mr. Knaul's revocation was upheld (well over a YEAR later) despite letters of support from a wide range of community members. His Council's overstated membership counts have shown substantial "decreases" since recent enrollment scandals have broken.

 

Mr. Knaul was finally told that his registration was revoked for being one of 23 signatures on a letter to a local paper questioning why his SMALL Council was spending $500,000 on unneeded new offices instead of on boys. Yet he was removed unjustly under procedures drawn up to "protect boys" in violation of procedures that are supposed to apply to a UNIT Scouter.

 

Provided since I keep getting accused of "making things up"

BW can find more on a simple Google Search "Knaul Boy Scouts". I've persoanlly talked to Mr. Knaul. Nice guy, dedicated to Scouting - still. Another case where an incompetent professional is making a mess of a Council. Of note, the SE there lied about meeting fundraising goals for those new offices and continued colledcting donations after meeting his goal. The trustees who made the matching payments publicly questioned why funds were STILL being solicited after they provided the funds needed.

 

 

 

"WEDNESDAY SEPTEMBER 14, 2005 Last modified: Saturday, January 31, 2004 11:28 PM EST

 

Knaul awaits decision on ban

 

By Rob Varley / Staff Writer

 

With his future in the Boy Scouts of America resting on a decision from the organization's national headquarters in Irving, Texas, local scoutmaster Richard Knaul is publicly defending his record.

 

Knaul had his membership revoked by the local Cayuga County Boy Scouts Council in September, and is facing a lifetime ban from the organization. A decision is expected from the national office in May.

 

The 66-year-old Owasco man, a decorated scoutmaster with nearly 35 years of service, contends he is being pushed out of scouts for publicly opposing the county council's proposal for a $500,000 service center.

 

"I've never been a patch collector," Knaul said. "I enjoy teaching the kids the ways of Scouting. I enjoy seeing them grow up."

 

In January 2003, Knaul wrote a letter to The Citizen, urging people not to support a proposed BSA service center. He argued that more programs, not a new center, were needed in the area.

 

He believes the original letter led to the some officials wanting to "kick him out."

 

Since September, Knaul's Troop 21 is being run by Mark Rogers. But Knaul still attends the weekly meetings at Sacred Heart Church, along with the troop's 22 scouts. He has also joined the group on camping trips helping to maintain what he calls a "two-deep leadership," and continues to wear his scoutmaster uniform.

 

"A lot of people at the church and parents say, 'Stick with it. Glad to see you wearing a uniform. Glad to see you here,'" he said.

 

Council President Donald Simpson, who once awarded Knaul with the "Wood Badge ticket" marking the highest level of scoutmaster training, sent him a revocation letter.

 

"In the letter, it was stated he has to disassociate himself with the program immediately. That's pretty clear," said Simpson. But he's not surprised to hear Knaul is still actively involved with Troop 21.

 

"I'm sure there's long-time friendships there. You just don't walk away from your friends," he said.

 

Simpson said The Citizen letter was not the entire basis for Knaul's dismissal. "It was a part of it. Simply a part of it," he said.

 

"It was not a decision made radically, quickly or anything else of that nature. It finally came down to the fact that he shouldn't be part of the operation of the council. No one disputes the fact he gave a lot of time and effort to his troop. He's delivered a satisfactory program. That's not what the issue was."

 

He wouldn't elaborate on other reasons behind Knaul's dismissal. He said the approximately 18-member executive committee made the decision.

 

Knaul, a former electrician and BOCES instructor, joined the Boy Scouts in 1948 as a child. While he served in the Navy in Bainbridge, Md., he was an assistant scoutmaster.

 

"I was active until I went to sea," he said. "Pretty hard to do it out there."

 

When he returned from duty, Knaul got involved with the Sea Scout unit, Ship 25, in Auburn.

 

"When my kids came along, I dropped out until they were old enough to join the Boy Scouts," he said.

 

Scouting became a family affair for the Knauls. His sons, David, 30, and John, 28, were Eagle Scouts. His wife, Barbara, was a Girl Scout leader. His daughter, Kate, 28, was a Girl Scout.

 

Knaul said there are council board members who support him. "They're going to tell you the whole executive board made the decision. I'm sure they will tell you that," Knaul said, adding other board members who agree with him would be reluctant to come forward.

 

He believes Simpson and Scout Executive Don Grillo made the decision.

 

In his letter, Knaul wrote that proposing $500,000 for a center and a scout executive position when membership was seriously declining was not "ethical."

 

"He would be wrong," said Simpson bluntly.

 

Simpson said the executive board had weekly meetings regarding the service center for approximately six months. Renting, leasing, and buying were all discussed. The local council and supportive community leaders wanted the BSA chapter to have an autonomous presence in the area.

 

"It's not going to be a Taj Mahal. It's not going to be spartan, but a relatively modest building. I don't think that's excessive," Simpson said.

 

He pointed out that only $250,000 went toward building costs. The other money was dedicated to operation costs. The building would house a training center, administrative offices and a scout shop. He said owning the service center gives them an asset if they have to consolidate.

 

When the case went before the regional BSA headquarters in New Jersey, Knaul said they sided with the local chapter but it was "not a unanimous decision."

 

Knaul considered his case unique.

 

"As I have told the region, I feel they definitely have to do something about this council," he said. "I don't know of any other cases like mine."

 

For Knaul, the solution may be going back to basics - building character, fostering citizenship, and developing fitness.

 

"I'm influenced a lot by the whole Boy Scout organization. I have nothing against the Boy Scout organization at all," he said.

 

When Sacred Heart Church sets up for their Chef's Night on Thursday, Knaul will be there with his troop assisting for their community service project. He will continue to make as many expeditions as he can.

 

Boy Scouts of America national spokesman Greg Shields did not return repeated phone calls asking for comment on the Knaul case.

 

Would the local council accept Knaul's official return?

 

"I guess we would have to," Simpson said. "Although if he truly is as bitter as he is making out and is against the council, I don't know why he would be part of it in the first place."

 

Knaul said he just wants to help the young scouts. "I will continue to do whatever I can for the troop," Knaul said. "I have a lot of money invested in uniforms if (the council) wants to buy them."

 

[Greying Beaver 10]

Ok Ok Ok

 

mea culpa, mea culpa, mea maxima culpa. There was a quad posting so I thought I would clean it up, when I got done, it was clean alright, everything was gone. I PMed Greying Beaver to apologize and asked he repost, it wasnt off color, non scoutlike or anything like that. I humbly grovel

 

OldGreyEagle (This message has been edited by a staff member.)

[Greying Beaver 10]

(This message has been edited by a staff member.)

[evmori 11]

Great response.

[NJCubScouter 1389]

Ed, assuming you were referring to Greying Beaver's post(s), it looks like most of us will have to take your word for that...

[evmori 11]

(This message has been edited by a staff member.)

 

This is the response I wa referring to! Considering Greying Beaver seems to double post it looks like two were whited out.

[nldscout 18]

Would the Staff member that edited GB response care to share?

 

I wish also that if you edit someones posts you Identify yourself not just "(This message has been edited by a staff member.)"

[Greying Beaver 10]

DING!! Back to your corners. I am the aggrieved party. OGE emailed me privately as he said. He let me know what had happened. My response was it would be better in the long run to fix the double posting problem that attached to my postings. I quote myself, "I am not much of a narcissist." My world will not grind to a halt or its wheels come off over an accidently erased posting. Worst things have happened in my life.

 

I also lauded him for this forum. It is a great way to see how scouters in other parts of the country do things. We are part of a world-wide movement that is constantly . . . moving. It is enlightening, informative, and entertaining.

 

Carry on, OGE!

[Guest OldGreyEagle]

thank you Greying Beave, and you can be sure I intend to continue carrying on

 

[SWScouter 34]

Cool, so far eleven responses and not a one is a response to the original post. What a statement that is!

[Bob White 20]

YAWN....

[Hunt 11]

"Cool, so far eleven responses and not a one is a response to the original post. What a statement that is!"

 

I couldn't read the original post, because it hurt my eyes. I will only read jkhny's posts in the future if he is able to keep them short.

 

[packsaddle 753]

Yes, the original post was rather long. The question that caught my attention was:

"Why is BSA throwing out critics instead of responding to their challenges?"

 

It presumes 1) that public criticism is sufficient in itself to have membership revoked and 2) that BSA does not respond to the criticisms.

I have insufficient data to establish 1) as a definite trend. And for 2), I think it depends on the specific challenge that is handed to BSA.

 

But with regard to 1), I have several times been warned not to air my criticisms publicly unless I am willing to risk loss of membership. While I can't be sure, I nevertheless take the warning seriously.

Do any of you know if this is true? Hypothetically, for a leader who has no other membership transgressions, what would it take in the form of public criticism to get the ax?

[jkhny 10]

"Hypothetically, for a leader who has no other membership transgressions, what would it take in the form of public criticism to get the ax?"

 

It seems like "not much" - and you can get thrown out even when you're right. Just WHY were you "warned"? What happened to "free speech?"

 

 

Willis was thrown out after questioning enrollment numbers.

 

Here a leader was thrown out over protesting property sales and the removal of long serving volunteers from District and Council positions who had done the same.

 

In NE GA, a scout and their parent were thrown out for complaining about a DE buying beer for counselors at camp (but were later reinstated when the DE was caught DUI and the SE caught in an IRS investigation).

 

I personally know of cases where the VICTIMS of "wrongdoing" were thrown out to "keep them quiet" and protect the reputations of professionals. I will not go into details because these cases are still in appeal.

 

BSA has recently shown a disturbing trend in throwing out critics with VALID criticisms - or even arbitrarily because a local SE wants to get rid of someone they don't like.

 

And these abuses continue and are INCREASING because BSA takes the "corporate stance" and figures that with attorneys on retainer they can outspend anyone. BSA will throw out questioners before admitting wrongdoing by paid staff.

 

 

THIS should be a VERY DISTURBING trend to ANYONE in Scouting.

 

 

BSA claims it "listens" to its members and respects their opinions.

 

Dave Rice has a record rarely matched in Scouting yet he was thrown out for daring to question the "radioactive" issue of "membership criteria."

 

Having survived THAT storm, BSA now seems to feel that it's far easier to simply throw people when confronted with ANY questions they cannot answer.

 

This threat has surfaced regularly (and been carried out) in too many cases of enrollment fraud.....The whistleblower (volunteer or paid) is thrown out.

 

THIS is another warning sign of a corrupt organization in trouble....threaten and throw out those raising valid questions that you can't answer.....

 

Knaul is but one case. And interestingly, his Troop and CO continues to support his involvement. BSA has "warned" the CO but done nothing else - afraid, it seems of bringing more publicity to this case. The local Council there has gotten regular and increasing criticism for the inept leadership of its SE and hand-picked Board. Many Scouters there believe their small Council exists ONLY to provide a paid position for the SE.

 

[Hunt 11]

Please, jkhny, edit your posts. Make one or two short, punchy points in each one. For example, in the last one (which I read only part of until my eyes started hurting), you could have responded to packsaddle by giving one clear, documented example of somebody being removed from membership for criticism. Instead, another rambling message mentioning people I have never heard of, and a bunch of repeated passionate (and over-capitalized) expostulations.