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Health & Safety and Training Questions - Get the right info

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Got to double check the G2SS's definition of tomahawk ;) , but according to Funk & Wagnalls New World Encyclopedia


TOMAHAWK, light war hatchet of the North American Indians. The

early tomahawk consisted of a sharpened piece of stone or deer

horn inserted in a handle of wood or fastened to the handle by

sinews or cords of skin. European traders later supplied the

Indians with hatchets of steel. The tomahawk had important

ceremonial connotations of war and peace.


The phrase "bury the hatchet" come from the use of pipe tomahawks. Tomakawks as menioned above are a symbol of warfare, but when a pipe-tomahawk is "buried" only the peace pipe,or calumet, portion of the tool is shown.


And now you have the rest of the story.



(This message has been edited by eagle92)

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Point of Order.

First, allowing things and not addressing others is different than prohibiting things and not addressing others, it sets two different tones.

(edit, a badly needed comma was inserted)

IMHO, from my most humble experience. Organizations tend to take a tone of A) Prohibiting things they don't allow or B) Allowing things they don't prohibit.

i.e. In the Marine Corps if it wasn't prohibited you could probably get away with doing it.

My Air Force friends found the same in non-work related issues but the opposite in duty related issues. My Army and Navy friends usually found that if it wasn't specifically allowed you had better not do it - as you would not get away with doing it even though it wasn't specifically prohibited.

Each one of us had no clear guidance on some issues but knew which way the wind was likely to blow. BSA is not giving the same guidance.


My issue here is that the BSA chooses to straddle that line, and in so doing leaves much more open to interpretation than they may be wanting to do. And so opinion does come into play until a court case resolves it for us and most of us don't have the resources to stay abreast of those issues on a continuing basis-and then "I heard..." comes into play AGAIN.


(This message has been edited by Gunny2862)

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2 things.


1) Glad someone picke up on the late, great Paul Harvey quote, may he R.I.P.


2) Is anyone else having problems downloading the G2SS? I realized I had an older copy and threw it away, thinking I could print ht updated one at work doublesided. Tried to do it an it didn't happen.

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Yep, I'm the fat one, and my comment was a sarcastic rip on the new med form. Couldn't resist. I'm a lowly Cub leader, but have learned a lot from the discussions about "unwritten rules" on this forum.




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Don't get me started on the new health form. I love the misinformation about the SSN that is in national's FAQ. Requiring the SSN to receive medical care is a violation of the FEDERAL E.M.T.A.L.A. law. I have attempted several times to make this known to no result. trust me no hospital will violate that law with the penalties involved. Heck the losses my hospital suffers b/c people use the ER as a doc's office and never pay is cheaper than the penalties for violating this law.



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Fellow Scouters,




I appreciate MileHighScouters initiative. To open a discussion and dialogue about Health and Safety.


But other than his own statement about his background of being the chair District Training Committee and training Health and Safety courses and all other Boy Scout Training. We don't have many other credentials, no one else to vouch for MileHigh's "Get the right info" or get out straight answers.


Most of us on the Scouter.com forum have read and re-read the G2SS, for years. I personally have three current copies in my Troop briefcase, Venturing briefcase and District Training material, and have probably 20 previous editions on my office shelves. So I expect many of our fellow forum members have the same concern of delivering a safe program and have read and studied the literature (and probably have a Scouting library that puts mine to shame).


Again, I appreciate MileHighScouter's initiative, but if he stated that he served on the National BSA Safety committee to write and update the G2SS, this would come with more credibility. That is where the straight answers should come from, from the committee members that wrote the book.


About the G2SS, I've often thought that BSA was absolute with certain statements and purposely remained vague on other topics for certain reasons. (i.e. sometimes stating should, recommended, encouraged, rather than stating must, shall, will)


I myself don't have a problem quoting the G2SS, but I don't tell my fellow Scouters to come to me for the straight answers. I do tell my friends that I have alot of Scouting experience, but I use the common reference "I'm a jack of all trade, but a master of none". I tell my Scouting friends; certainly, come to me for an opinion, or come to me to see what the literature says. But I don't interpret what is written (or what is unwritten) as the straight answer.


I do respect MileHighScouters experience, but it will be a while before I trust everything he says as the absolute straight answer instead of representing his opinion.


Maybe this thread should have been originally titled, "Health & Safety and Training - Let's discuss it" instead of " Health & Safety and Training Questions - Get the right info"


Scouting Forever and Venture On!

Crew21 Adv

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Good question.

Here is the link to the actual law




(h) No Delay in Examination or Treatment.A participating hospital may not delay provision of an appropriate medical screening examination required under subsection (a) or further medical examination and treatment required under subsection (b) in order to inquire about the individual's method of payment or insurance status.


Since SSN's are used for insurance purposes, especially now tht the expanded SCHIP has passed, it's my understanding that section h applies. Now I should clarify, that is EMERGENCY CARE. In my experience the three times I've taken scouts or leaders to the hospital was for an emergency. If the scout or leader would be admitted, then yes a SSN would be needed. but emergency care no.


I know that there are legal precedents in reference to this matter as well, I just don't have access to the book with that info at this time. Give me some time to try and get the book back from my hospital's ED.

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It downloaded for me just fine. Remember it's the 2007 printing they pdf'd, you do have to go to the update website to get the changes. That's one reason why I like the online version.


You'll probably have to run it through the xerox machine to get it doublesided, unless you've got a really fancy printer.

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I'm sorry if anyone thought my comment re: squirtguns and water balloons was belittling in any way. While squirtguns are clearly a bad example, NealOnWheels expressed what I was trying to say with his point about kazoos: Just because an object or activity is not mentioned does not make it unauthorized.


The thread was begun to clear up some of the myths and "unwritten rules" about health, safety and training issues. I believe that MileHighScouter's argument about hand axes falls under one of those myths or unwritten rules, as it clearly is addressed in G2SS.

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BTW...just looked up the SeaBase health forms. The "guidelines" are just that. Specifically:


Any participant or adviser who exceeds the maximum weight limits on the weight chart may want to reconsider participation in a Sea Base high adventure program. Anyone who exceeds these limits is at extreme risk for health problems. Participants who fall within the guidelines are more likely to have an enjoyable program and avoid incurring health risks. The absolute weight limit for our programs is 300 pounds.

The right hand column shows the maximum recommended weight for participating in a Sea Base high adventure

program. Anyone who exceeds these limits is at extreme risk for health problems. Individuals who exceed these limits may want to reconsider participation in a Sea Base high adventure program...


emphasis mine. Looks like the absolutes limit is 300lbs. which exceeds the capcity of much of their marine ladders and equipment.

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Ok folks a few things.


1) Sorry I couldn't get the book. I've been asked to do a major literature search and spent the better part of the day trying ot find the info for the physician. Hopefully I can post thrusday as I will be busy with this lit search and another tomorrow. FYI the book is called The EMTALA Answer Book. by Mark Moy.


2) It's my understanding that the new health form is replacing all the current health forms, i.e. Class 1&2, Class 3, NSJ, Philmont, etc. and that is the reason why the height weight chart was put in.

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