Membership decline. - Are we turning the corner?

[Mr. Boyce 13]

Good comments above.

 

I am amazed at how dictatorial youth sports organizations are. . . and parents allow them to be so. They are highly demanding of time and money.

 

Some years back I was on the board of a symphony which virtually gave away tickets to concerts. We decided to raise the ticket price. . . in the belief that people would then believe the program had merit. This twist worked.

 

Perhaps scouting should be more demanding. Perhaps the new uniform is really meant to assuage boys' concerns that the uniform looks silly or stupid, etc. (By the way, glad to hear Louv's comment: I was in a troop years ago that was emphatic about hiking, plenty of hiking: a good way to condense an outdoor experience into one day).

 

BUT are there historical statistics on scout participation? How forthcoming is national with hard data?

[BadenP 93]

I concur with your statement on program Eamonn, the trouble is who decides what is challenging for the youth? Too many adult leaders try to create a program centered around their experiences of the BSA 20-30 years ago, trying to relive their past. When the right balance is discovered between youths interests of today with the essential core scouting skills and leadership we may see a significant increase in membership, but if we don't find it soon it will be too late. ADVERTISING is one of the main key components to this sucess, without it no program can succeed.

[Stosh 3452]

I guess I'm one of those who live in the past, try to recreate my youth, or whatever, yet my historically contrived program seems to be working, kids are joining up and they are doing a lot more than they ever expected.

 

Maybe there's something back then that has changed today that shouldn't have.

 

Stosh

[Eamonn 61]

" When the right balance is discovered between youths interests of today with the essential core scouting skills and leadership we may see a significant increase in membership,..."

 

I have to admit that trying to find this balance is something I have a hard time with.

Talking only for myself.

On one hand I like where we (Scouting) has been and where we come from.

I still firmly believe that we need to keep a value based program.

I still think a lot of the traditional activities still appeal to youth. (We do have to "Sell" the activities and present them in a way that is fun and does offer real challenges. - For example tying knots in the church basement is not seen as being fun, but learning knots that you are going to have to use to go sailing does take on a new meaning.)

But on the other hand..

Talking with kids who are unhappy with Scouts and Scouting or who have quit. It does seem that we maybe spend too much time stressing the small and little stuff, enforcing and sometimes preaching? About rules and regulations that they either don't like and a lot of times fail to understand.

I at times am not sure if we should adopt what I call the "Youth Club" mentality. A program where the youth are more free to just pop in or look in and pick and choose what activities they like or want to participate in. (Which in some ways a lot of older Scouts in a good many Troops do anyway!!) The hope here is of course that if what is offered is what they want they will be there anyway!

The danger is of course that in a youth led program we do need the youth to be there to lead.A lot of the youth I know are either too busy? (Doing what?) Or just lazy little toads. We do run the risk of just having adults plan and run the activities, with anyone who finds that they are free or have no other plans just tagging along.

 

Part of me does believe that deep down the BSA is aware that some real changes are needed but I believe that the fear of losing so many volunteers who are so deeply entrenched in the way things are and were prevents this from happening. - This is of course just my own opinion.

My hope is that the BSA will take a look at what is happening in other Scouting organizations and Associations and see what is working and not working, with a view to maybe making a few changes.

We however have what we have right now. It can and does work -If we make it work.

Eamonn.

[Stosh 3452]

One must also remember that the temptation to conform to other youth organizations that appear to be successful isn't always the best course of action. BSA has a traditional core belief system that would need to be removed in order be more competitive. Membership requirements/expectations would need to be removed, and program changes to conform to the expectations of the "customers".

 

So far I have been encouraged by the BSA's reluctance to do such things. The BSA program was, is and hopefully will continue to be, different than the others. Scouting offers a viable alternative to many of the culturally acceptable programs offered today. Some programs are offered to keep kids out of trouble; others so that kids can be involved in competitive sports; and still more for youth with special interests.

 

If scouting were to change to compete with these other organizations, it would lose its unique identity while at the same time try to compete in a game of someone else's design and forte. The reason scouting has lasted as long and is respected in the way it is, is because it is NOT like all the rest of the youth organizations out there. For some people, playing sports is important. The drawback however is that one can play sports for only so long in life and then its over. For other people, activities and trips are important, as long as some adults do all the work and planning, they'll show up with their $$'s and life will be entertaining and good. And still others have the non-commitment approach to youth activities where the kids show up, hang out for a while and then go home, having gained an afternoon of non-boredom.

 

Some of these organizations teach valuable lessons such as sportsmanship, winning is everything, hard work at fundraising will get one a nice trip, etc. But scouting offers a very wide, traditional core of opportunities and values that most parents find attractive and will enroll their children in. However, if down the road the kids are not getting that from the program, or the kids are able to convince the parents otherwise, then they will leave and in large numbers.

 

With a world full of soccer-moms and Little League dad's, we aren't going to win with all of the boys out there, and if everyone continues to promote the numbers game instead of the program they will continue to be frustrated and/or disappointed. Not every boy has what it takes to be a scout, nor do they often have the opportunity to even try. I would think it more beneficial to think quality rather than quantity when it comes to scouting.

 

Just stop and imagine for a moment. What if the recent tornado in Iowa had hit a YMCA, Boys & Girls Club, or Church camp instead of a BSA camp with trained boys and leaders who knew how to handle themselves? As tragic as it may have been, the deaths due to moderate to severe injuries would have been far greater. Everytime I teach a boy about first aid, or emergency prep, or leadership resourcefulness, I am more satisfied than if I had taught him about the rules to baseball, or strategy of basketball, or playing a musical instrument.

 

If I go down with a medical problem anywhere in the world, I'm hoping that if I only have one bystander is a scout and not the star high school football quarterback.

 

Is my bias showing? :^)

 

Stosh

[Eamonn 61]

Hi Stosh,

Not sure if you noticed or not?

But I posted:

"My hope is that the BSA will take a look at what is happening in other Scouting organizations and Associations and see what is working and not working, with a view to maybe making a few changes."

Just thought I'd mention it!

Ea.

 

[troutmaster 10]

Stosh;

 

Interestingly, in more cases than you would think, the star sports player is in scouts, and the best often become Eagle. Same goes for academic successes. They may not talk about being in scouts if they are into athletics, but in our area many are.

 

In relation to the retention discussion, I wonder if we should be looking at the activities that keep the lesser goal oriented scouts interested. It seems to me that a lot of discussions focus too much on how to get them to stay and become Eagle, rather than simply make the program fun for as many as possible, whether they are aiming to become Eagle or not.

 

Just some thoughts. What think some of the rest of the board?

[Gold Winger 9]

"Talking with kids who are unhappy with Scouts and Scouting or who have quit. It does seem that we maybe spend too much time stressing the small and little stuff, enforcing and sometimes preaching?"

 

Life used to be made up of the small and little stuff, rules and such.

 

Take out the papers and trash or you don't get no spending cash!

 

Now, all too often if you have a kid who doesn't want to mow the lawn, the answer is to say, "Fine, I'll mow it." Don't put your dirty clothes into the hamper, mom goes searching for them on the bedroom floor. Oh by the way, I don't want to seem unreasonable, so here's $20 so you can go to the mall with your friends.

 

"I need to pick my battles!" is a frequent cry, then the kid comes home from school one day with two tattoos and announces that you're going to be a grandfather.

 

I've always been a firm believer that if the little expectations are met on a regular basis, the big ones follow naturally.

[Eamonn 61]

Gold Winger

As a parent,it's OK for me to be Lord and Master (To the extent that Her Who Must Be Obeyed will allow!!)

It's OK for me to have my own pet peeves, moans and groans. If the mood strikes me I can chew my kid's ear off. Telling him how lucky he is and going on about walking ten miles uphill to and from school. (You get my drift.)

But the youth that join a Troop,Pack or Crew don't join to learn Eamonn's pet peeves.

Of course there does have to be acceptable standards in many areas.

But having visited a good many Troop meetings where Mr. Scoutmaster uses the time at the end of the meeting to bore the pants off the entire Troop just because one Lad may have messed up. I can see and do understand why a lot of youth members are in no rush to return. Heck!! A lot of times I can't wait to get the heck out of there!!

This to me seems a very long way off from a program that is fun, adventurous and offering new challenges. If this is all we can offer? I feel sure OJ could have remained home and listened to me have my little rants.

Eamonn.

[Lisabob 13]

I only have one teenager in the house and so I'm a novice when it comes to understanding the twists and turns of the teenage brain (and hormone system!). My poor son is the guinea pig and he doesn't even have younger siblings to benefit from my learning experiences!

 

But, here's what I've noticed: Kids ages 11+ become very, very good at tuning out adults, and at smelling out a rat. When some adult tells them all about how its "for you boys" but then proceeds by his/her actions to take away their power to actually make choices, spends 20-40 minutes every meeting blathering on at them, and is more full of malarky than an Oscar Meyer Weiner, well they figure it out pretty quick. And once they reach that conclusion, nothing that guy (or gal) says is going to get their attention. It is as true of teachers as of scout leaders, and the smart kids who are self-motivators figure it out and learn to ignore/zone/fake attention the fastest. These, unfortunately, are EXACTLY the kids who are most likely to become our "youth leadership" in scouting, if they stay.

 

So sure, we can blame parents for being too lax - and some are. We can blame kids for having perpetual ADD because no one has ever taught or made them focus on anything - and for some that's true. But we really do need to look more carefully at ourselves. At least initially, kids and parents vote with their feet and their wallets. Why we should expect them to come into the scouting program placing a higher emphasis on it than on the myriad other programs available to youth today, is not clear to most of them. Before we can expect youth or adult loyalty or buy-in to the aims and methods of the program, we need to be sure we're actually using and delivering them. Otherwise it is all just blather and hype, with nothing at the core.

 

 

[Eamonn 61]

Lisabob

Poor old OJ,is in much the same boat as your nipper. Both of them being only children!!

I'm not sure if there is such an animal as a "Expert Parent"?

I do believe that many of us can if we try look back and remember what it was like when we were about the ages of the youth who make up the groups within the units we serve.

We can look back with fond memories on the people who inspired us. We can also look back at the people who failed.

We do have in place tools that do provide feedback. We can learn a lot from Reflections and sometimes by just overhearing what the youth are saying as we drive from place to place.

Before the old Boy Scout WB course went bye-by, reflections were maybe a little bit over the top and maybe done a little too often? So much so that I know that they became a bit of a joke.

Now we have in the new course "Feedback is a gift". Again some people are poking fun at this. But Feedback can be a gift, if we are willing to be open and honest.

Sadly all to often the adults tend to get very defensive, close ranks and not see it as a gift.

While many Scouter's do have a great love love for Scouting and the BSA. I at times do wonder if they even like the youth they are supposed to be serving?

Along the same lines I sometimes wonder if they understand that things are not as they once were.

Back when I was a Scout (A very long time back!!) I remember the "Old-time Scouter's" talking about how long hair, rock and roll and TV were going to be the end of Scouting as we they knew it.

Today I hear the same tune only the words have changed. It is true that computers and the Internet have changed the way all of us spend our time and go about doing things.

Kids are exposed to a lot of stuff that I know when I was their age I wasn't exposed too.

Maybe it is harder to come up with a program that is attractive enough to drag Little Bobby away from Grand Theft Auto? Maybe Bobby's Mom feels uncomfortable when Little Bobby isn't safe and secure in his bedroom?

But I still firmly believe that with trained adults who have good skills and lots of imagination we can come up with a great program that will entice Little Bobby out of his bedroom, while not upsetting his Mom too much.

Eamonn.

[Stosh 3452]

Many times the star football player is a scout? But of course, if it wasn't for the fact that Scouting is unique, though this person could have been just a star football player. Being a member of two differing organizations is not the same as being a member of two similar organizations. If Scouting offered nothing different than the next guy, most of the choices wouldn't be both/and they would be either/or.

 

And in case one hadn't noticed, I was not referencing other scouting organizations and associations, I was making reference to BSA trying to duplicate the efforts of youth organizations in general, i.e. YMCA, Boys/Girls Clubs, 4-H, etc., thought I'd just mention that again, too.

 

Stosh(This message has been edited by jblake47)

[Gold Winger 9]

"It's OK for me to have my own pet peeves, moans and groans. If the mood strikes me I can chew my kid's ear off. Telling him how lucky he is and going on about walking ten miles uphill to and from school."

 

Apple and oranges. . . or maybe Granny Smith and Gala.

 

What about the adult who winds up cleaning all of the tents because the youth can't be bothered and says, "Oh well, they're good boys but they have other things to do. If I make a fuss, they might quit." Or the boy that insists on farting loudly during meetings to disrupt them, "Oh, he's a good kid but I don't want to drive him away."

 

It's the little things that add up to make a big difference.

[Kudu 186]

I agree with Gold Winger, I don't allow my Scouts to laugh at loud farts either.

 

Its the silent farts that add up to make a big difference.

[Eamonn 61]

"What about the adult who winds up cleaning all of the tents because the youth can't be bothered "

The duty roster called for John to clean the tents.

When he fails to do what he should have done. John needs to face whatever the consequences are.

This is very different than Mr. Scoutmaster spending half the Troop meeting telling everyone off for what one member failed to do.

Of course it does require leadership skills.

No one is saying that anyone should get away with doing what they are supposed to do.

 

Ea.