Union Busting or Sound Financial Management?

[packsaddle 753]

Welcome to the forums, Lucky_scouter. If I read your message correctly, it looks like you are a teacher. If so, I thank you for your service.

You will find a wide range of views on these forums and few of us are reluctant to state our opinions. That said, I sympathize with your view on this. I have watched closely (I've been involved with science education) over the recent decades. It does seem that there is a lack of interest in education among the public. I am not sure if this is merely an anti-intellectual spirit or merely a desire to get something for nothing...or some of both. Either way, it does seem futile at times to continue to try to provide quality education. I can give you one element of optimism, the few students who successfully get to this institution are mostly excellent, as good as any I've seen at any institution. And they will succeed in life. Therefore, at least someone somewhere is having at least a little success.

[jrush 11]

Sherm,

 

I didn't directly quote you. Yes, I said "sneaky political manuevering", because that, essentially, is what the entire pro-union crowd said happened. Maybe not in this or that specific post, but is the message from the union crowd. "The GOP used underhanded sneaky techniques to destroy the unions", or words to that effect. I'll let your reaction speak for how close to the mark I hit it.

 

Next: po-tay-toe, po-tah-toe. You say "direct attack on the unions", I said "put control of tax dollars back into the hands of taxpayers". When dealing with public employee unions, they are one and the same. Bottom line, public employee unions are doing two things which (in my opinion) should be stopped:

 

- taking tax dollars paid by one person, sent to a public employee, involuntarily collected as dues and then donated to Democrats, whom the original taxpayer may or may not support. I have a choice to avoid donating money to democrats by avoiding private union-made products, from GM vehicles to Colt firearms...I can buy a Kia or Glock, instead. This is one reason I support federalizing the entire public education system, eliminating locally-elected boards and making all teachers and administrators federal GS employees, same as the DOD school system.

 

- Through collective bargaining, public employee unions shift the power to spend tax dollars from state and local lawmakers to themselves. The problem with this is that the legislator is the Constitutional representative of the taxpayer, and has the duty to the taxpayer to get the most "bang for the buck" for each tax dollar levied. The union has a responsility to its membership...NOT the taxpayer.

 

What a lot of people in this discussion have failed to do is seperate public and private unions. Private unions are not the issue. If a company doesn't want to deal with them, they can relocate to a right-to-work State. If an individual doesn't want to support them, they can purchase non-union made products. Not every car is made by UAW. Not every delivery is made by the Teamsters. Further, private unions do have a 100 year old bloody shirt to wave around, becasue they did fight for to 40 hour week, child labor laws, workplace safety, etc, etc. But, that being said, public employee unions have done none of that. Quite frankly, the only thing they've done is drive up the cost of government-provided services above that of their non-union peers, with NO increase in value. Are union teachers providing a superior education to students, or are they reading 3 grades behind, same as non-union taught students? Are the crime rates in cities patrolled by union cops lower than that of comparable size cities patrolled by non-union cops? Do union firefighters provide a measurably faster response time? If not, then why do they deserve to collectively bargain for higher pay and bennies? Because 100 years ago striking union members routinely got fired on? That's no different than an 8 year old boy parading around school with his great uncle's Purple Heart demanding to skip to the front of the lunch line.

 

 

[Lucky_scouter 10]

jrush:

 

From the teacher standpoint, I think most of us in the profession are in it to help kids. We also have families to feed and we deserve no less consideration than any other employee both public and private.

 

I think our issue is that we have to have some kind of protection and we seem to be the "whipping boys" for everything wrong in education. NCLB and other state-led mandates require that teachers, principals, superintendents and school boards be held accountable and for a teacher that is frustrating. The one entity that has to show progress and advancement is not held accountable and that is the student. For that matter, parents aren't held accountable either. Our only voice is a union and if that is "busted" we have no voice. More teachers leave the profession now than retire from it. How can we be trusted with children and not with a paycheck? I have 20 years in as a teacher and have had my share of run-ins with administrators which are less than professional and I'm a certified administrator myself. This matter is not as simple as a "union teacher" or a "non-union teacher" or the cost of government services rising because of a union. My wife works for our state and she hasn't seen a raise in years. There is a union but it clearly doesn't affect paychecks and if the job is cut, the union can't bring it back.

 

Unions aren't the problem but who knows, maybe China will be happy to bring in industry when we have a workforce that is willing to work for slave wages. Maybe they will help us "fix" our educational system. Then you will have three "tracks" the upper level math and science (doctor/researcher scientist) track, the business/ skills track and then the manual labor track. Unlike our system which allows you to choose...

[sherminator505 10]

jrush,

 

You did it again.

 

I said: "The Republicans in Wisconsin have pushed through as naked and straightforward an attack on labor as has been seen in many years." You quoted: "direct attack on the unions." I'm not sure about the world you live in, but where I come from, words mean something. You have shown us that others' words hold little value to you, as you continue to misquote.

 

While you mull that over, you may consider the meaning of other words, like "trustworthy" and "courteous."

[SeattlePioneer 144]

In health care we have a diversified system of providers that does a terrific job of providing service in most cases --- if you can afford the cost of care.

 

 

In the public education system we have the single payer system that liberals would like to go to for health care. It provides minimal family choice in most cases and often does a lousy job of educating children.

[Lucky_scouter 10]

SeattlePioneer:

 

When you say often, what statistics do you quote? Is that a percentage? Currently, doctors have the right to "fire" a patient when they do not heed the advice of the doctor. We do not have the luxury of firing students nor can we shut off their life support. Parents do that before we get them. Does a patient "get better" solely because of the treatment of a doctor? Family support? What other factors are there?

 

Patients often die or become more sick in the field of healthcare, does that mean that healthcare "often" does a lousy job of healing? Perhaps this education thing is also about the kind of parent support behind the public education... My kids are products of public education and they know that THEY are responsible for their learning and so are we. They are both exceptional students and set the "curve" in their public school classes. Perhaps the overhaul that is needed is not in education.

 

 

 

 

[CalicoPenn 729]

Well since some folks are still insisting that salaries paid to teachers is still taxpayer dollars, and not the teachers, then we're going to have to set up a "Department of Personal Expenditure Approval" for public employees that requires all public employees to spend money only on those things, and only at those places, the government say's it's ok to spend money at.

 

Eventually, with the government taking the lead, Corporations will start requiring their employees to get permission to donate money to causes.

[Lucky_scouter 10]

By the way Packsaddle, thanks for the support.

[jrush 11]

Sherm, in the world I live in, "direct attack" and "straightforward attack" do mean the same thing...largely because "direct" and "straightforward" are synonyms...you know, words that have the same meaning.

 

While I'm checking up on "trustworthy" and "courteous", I'll also swing by "mentally awake".

(This message has been edited by jrush)

[jrush 11]

lucky, I agree that teachers need protection and representation...that's where teacher associations come in and have a viable part to play. However, it isn't even the existence of the union that's the problem...it's a) collective bargaining for monetary benefits and b) involuntary collection of dues that are donated to politicians. GOP lawmakers aren't trying to "bust" the public employee unions. First Amendment, free association and all that applies. What they are doing is pulling the public unions' teeth.

[83Eagle 11]

Wow, wander away from this thread for a few weeks and...everything is still the same!

 

Public sector unions are a conflict of interest, plain and simple. Unions negotiate their contracts with the people they help put in office.

 

Public sector workers, particularly teachers, want it both ways. They want the autonomy and responsibility that goes with a professional position, yet they want the collective bargaining that goes with being a factory worker. Not that there's anything wrong with the latter, but it is different from a professional position.

 

If you want to be a professional, be willing to stand or fall on your own merits, and be rewarded for the same, not based on your length of service.

 

So now I can hear the next argument. "Well, without collective bargaining an individual won't be able to negotiate with the board/district/local government/etc." And...so what? Welcome to the real world! Out here a professional takes a job and negotiates the best he or she can when starting. But typically after that, you take what they give you! (Unless you can apply leverage by threatening to quit or getting a better offer elsewhere.)

 

Also I hear, "I'm going to get canned because an administrator doesn't like me." And...so? It's not fair, yes. Life isn't fair, get used to it. People get fired for stupid reasons all the time. Dust yourself off, get up, start over.

 

Bust 'em!

[sherminator505 10]

jrush,

 

A quote is a quote. When you put " " around something, you should verify that what is inside the " " is actually what was said.

 

If you wish to paraphrase, feel free to do so. Otherwise, you should probably familiarize yourself with the CTRL-C and CTRL-V functions on your keyboard. Because what you appear to be doing now is altering someone else's words in order to strengthen your arguments by responding to the statement you want to respond to and not the statement that was actually made.

[nolesrule 58]

The arguments about employer-paid benefits vs. what is taken out of paychecks and so forth is a silly argument. Salary itself is just the invisible line in the total compensation package that divides what shows up on your paystub vs. what doesn't.

 

 

 

[jrush 11]

Sherm, I agree, my use of quotes to paraphrase versus ctrl-c-ing an entire post may lead people to the wrong conclusions. That being said, it wasn't necessary to strengthen my argument. The vitriol that some people have for the actions of the Wisconsin GOP against the public employee unions is strength enough.

 

That being said, I still haven't seen any evidence for why public employee unions deserve to retain their collective bargaining priviledges, or why they should be able to levy involuntary dues to financially support politicians. In a nutshell, why was the attack (whether it was direct or straightforward) unjustified? Granted, I don't care if Walker said it was to save the budget or to save the whales...why was it unjustified?

[Lucky_scouter 10]

There are a few things that are problematic in these areas

 

"Public sector workers, particularly teachers, want it both ways. They want the autonomy and responsibility that goes with a professional position, yet they want the collective bargaining that goes with being a factory worker. Not that there's anything wrong with the latter, but it is different from a professional position."

 

The problem with this line of thinking is that we are not dealing with a "product" built on an assembly line, it is our children and like it or not, the equation isn't the same. A corporation doesn't build it's product based on the purchase of variable base materials. Taxpayers pay our salaries and expect professionalism from us yet our students are the only entities not held accountable. I would wager that ALL students would have more success if they knew that they would be held accountable.

 

"If you want to be a professional, be willing to stand or fall on your own merits, and be rewarded for the same, not based on your length of service." I know what you mean... and when are we going to be rewarded for the kids that excel? How about for the kids who could not read before I helped them?

 

"Out here a professional takes a job and negotiates the best he or she can when starting. But typically after that, you take what they give you! (Unless you can apply leverage by threatening to quit or getting a better offer elsewhere.)" And I'll bet that you are willing to pay the increased tax burden to pay for the results of our outstanding teaching? It hasn't happened yet and it has been proven that merit pay does nothing to raise student test scores. Why? Because the students are a variable that is independent of the teacher... not that they are incapable but the kids don't come from the same sets of parents.

 

"I'm going to get canned because an administrator doesn't like me." And...so? It's not fair, yes. Life isn't fair, get used to it. People get fired for stupid reasons all the time. Dust yourself off, get up, start over. So tell me you are not a scout leader because fairness, integrity, and honesty are what we teach. I hope that you don't treat your scouts that way.

 

I gladly pay my association dues after taxes to have a voice against this kind of ridiculous though process.