The fuzzy line of patriotism

[Scoutfish 16]

Patriotism.

 

Pretty much a cut and conscise word isn't it? But it doesn't have such a clear and concise meaning.

 

Let me bring you up to speed on a few things that even bring this subject up to me:

 

NASCAR

GM

Government bailouts

Blindly patriotic people

 

Okay, YES! I am a NASCAR fan. Love to watch races. I know 99 % of the cup drivers, 50% of the Nationwide drivers and 3 or 4 of the truck series drivers.

 

Nope! Couldn't tell the stats of Dale Earnhardt Sr when he was active or now. Can't tellyou what day, year or the exact time Richard Petty got his last win or what the tire pressure in his left rear tire was when he crosses the line.

 

 

I do not plan my wekend around races,. but sure do watch them if I have the time. Been to 4 races around the eastern part of the country to date so far.

 

Anyways, I do not think there is a more brand/ driver/ sponsor loyal group of people in America. I have seen people love a driver to death and drop him in a heartbeat because that driver switched manufacturers of cars. I have seen people talk with hatred through their teeth about a driver, but love him in a second when he does to a certain team.

 

And even though GM is sending jobs out of country left and right, and Toyota is bringing them in just as fast if not faster..I still see people stick by their American GM company while blasting the "Pearl Harbor starting Toyota corporation".

 

I read just the other day that GM, after getting a BUNCH of taxpayer money to bail itself out ( gee sending all those jobs over seas - who could buy a car here?)is now starting to make a profit. And what are they going to do with it? Invest billions in a research facility and hire the best of the best of scientists and engineers...OVER FREAKING SEAS! Not here, not wher they got the money to keep them afloat. They are going to stay together due to American citizens money, and go build overseas. Yeah...You are welcome!

 

Then I get involved with scouting and see that...after all the pushing of patriotism, althe respect to the flag, country, God and of course, veterans.....that BSA shops in China for as much as they can - all in the name of money. So lets talk the talk, but walk to China for a shirt cause it's cheaper and the scout shop can make extra $$$$ .

 

You had George Bush who ( all other things aside) decided that if we didn't stand with him 100% absolutely...well. then we might as well deport our own selves because we were unpatriotic and might as well be terrorists ourselves. Man the arrogance of that statement still irks me. No, George isn't much different than any other former or current president, but people blindly followed that "patriotic" statement.

 

 

So anyways, to get to the meat of the subject...I have been thinking of buying a new truck. I'm thinking of a 1/2 ton , 4 door crew cab. Not a dually, nor does it have to be a diesel or 4X4. I really don't need more than a V-6 for the amount of stuff I carry at any one time, but realize that a small V-8 might just last a bit longer.

 

So, I could but a Dodge,Ford or Toyota and know I would be supporting the most Americans that way, or buy a GMC and actually have the greatest chance of supporting foreign workers.

 

I install Garage doors for a living and have driven various trucks in tnat time: 1/2 ton Chevy, 1/2 ton Ford, 3/4 ton GMC , 1 ton Dodge w/ 200 Cummins diesel. The 3/4 ton GMC with the 6,0 litre engibe was my favorite. Had the power,,the speed and brute torgue.

 

Personally, I have owned a 1981 (AMC) Jeep CJ-5 , 1989 GMC S-15, 1993 Chevy S-10, 1995 Ford F-150 w/ 300 straight 6 manual tranny, and currently, a 1995 Ford F-150 302 auto.

 

I am looking at a Dodge 1/2 ton and a GMC 3/4 ton . Both are crew cabs with only a 6 foot bed, but other than camping or occasional piece of plywood, I pretty much only use my truck to haul off 4 or 5 bags of trash on the weekends.

So < I guess this is the real point of my post: Having time to think about iyt, I decided that buying a truck..meaning..I have to fork over a BUNCH of my hard earned money. I have to spend the money that I earn every day in the heat, the cold,the rain, snow, etc.. Money that I have accumulated over the years , and the payments I will be stuck under for the next 5 years......

 

WEll, I decided that it is not about being patriotic or not being patriotic. It's not about who I am showing support for or what my decisuion stands for from others point of view.

 

Nope! It's about me holding down a job, busting my butt day in and day out, supporting my family ( and who knows who or what with my taxes) and having earned the right to buy whatever brand I want.

 

It's my money that I earned cleanly,legally amd morally. You did not give me the money, as I didn't give you yours, so why do we worry about what each other thinks when it comes time to spend that money on ourselves?

 

Now, don't get me wrong. I am a patriotic person. I support our troops, our country and stand by and under our flag. I have immense pride in my country and especially those who protect it. I have the upmost respect and reverence for tosr who sacrificed all protecting it.

 

But at the same time, I cannot spend my who life toiling away, only to take the earned rewards of all that toiling - and spend it based on other people opinions.

 

That make sense to anybody?

 

Okay, I know I brought up all kinds of things to argue about...so help yourself!

[Eagledad 2780]

Hey, I'm still just trying get my mind around that its arrogant to follow Gods word in the other discussion. Patriotism is a bit down the list to ponder just yet.

 

Barry

[Scoutfish 16]

You will find that I NEVER said it was arrogant to follow God's word anywhere.

I did say it is arrogant FOR US TO CLAIM God wouldn't like something or that our God would condemn something based on OUR ideals when it was plainly stated that we are not to judge others.

 

[BDPT00 41]

OK, so all that being said, how do you feel now about the Scout Shop trying to make a profit?

BDPT00

[Scoutfish 16]

I don't have an issue with the SS making a profit. But it's kinda ironic that the shop sell "officail BSA merchandise" that is made in China when BSA pushes, promotes and stands behind Loyalty to our country and the flag.

 

They can make money selling American made merchandise too.

Mater of fact< I'm willing to be most folks wouldn't mind paying a buck or two extra if it was at least made in country instead of complaining about being made in China.

[Beavah 205]

Yah, I may just be different, eh? But I tend to view da "have to buy American" thing as just another aspect of the entitlement mentality. For some reason, a fellow feels he is owed my business just because of where he lives, no matter how lousy his product or service is.

 

Now, mind you, given an even quality and price, I'll tend to buy from someone more local who I have a relationship with. I'm happy to pay a slight premium to buy some things from a local store where the owners are helpful and well informed. But if they're not, I don't owe 'em my business, eh? I'm happy to buy online and support my local UPS workers.

 

Now me, I'd have let GM and Chrysler go down hard. Some of da financial bailout was necessary to prevent a full out depression, but the manufacturing bailout was just supporting a bunch of folks who were lousy businessmen and builders. And I don't feel bad about buying a Japanese car built in Indiana, a Taiwanese computer imported by a Texas company, produce from Costa Rica for dinner, or a shirt from Cambodia imported by Walmart. If someone elsewhere works hard to make a great product, and someone in da U.S. works their butt off getting it from Cambodia to me, good for them. I'd much rather buy coffee from Columbia than send 'em foreign aid for free. For one thing, da coffee profit might reach real people, maybe a bit more than the foreign aid, which will go to their government.

 

So if da BSA can't find a good deal on shirts in the US then I've got no problem with 'em buying offshore. Heck, I doubt a thing I'm wearing, driving, or using on a daily basis is 100% manufactured in ds states. Now, I do wish that instead of China they'd find a struggling democracy somewhere. But with da Chinese almost singlehandedly keeping da US borrow-and-spend economy afloat at the moment, I don't think it's fair to criticize. A bit like having a reluctant friend loan you half the value of your house so that you don't go bankrupt, and then refusing to eat in his restaurant when it's offering a great deal.

 

Beavah

[Scoutfish 16]

" a fellow feels he is owed my business just because of where he lives, no matter how lousy his product or service is. "

 

Yeah, I get that too. I figure it's my money they want, and nothing else. As a person who has the money ( general statement here) then actually, the auto manufacturers out to be loyal to us if the want our money again. Why am I loyal to them? They aren't doing me a favor, only asking that I spend my money there instead of somewhere else.

 

Same for the local guy. I patronize a tackle shop that is about 3 miles up the road. His prices are not the best overall, but I'm also paying for a great service: The owner knows me. By name. I'm not just a random customer. He knows my wife and son by name too. He knows that I fish for small inshore fish like spots, flounder, spanish mackeral, bluefish, etc. He is not gonna waste my time or his trying to sell me anything for marlin, sailfish, red snapper or such.

 

He will show me new stuff that comes in ..that will actually interest me. He will also take time to show my son how to cast a rod in a better way..even though a man with $500.00 worth of merchandice is right behind him.

 

I don't mind paying for service.

 

I guess it's one of those things that changes over time.

(This message has been edited by scoutfish)

[Bando 21]

I remember when the high cost of BSA uniform items was explained by the excuse that it was the cost of making them in America.

 

Now the shirts are made in China and Bangladesh, the socks and shorts in China, every single patch is made in China... And they're the -exact same price-, if not more expensive. Explain that, National Supply...

 

Also, those of us in the Midwest thank you for continuing to buy foreign cars. Really helping our bottom line. :\

[sherminator505 10]

I think our sense of patriotism has waned over the years. Sure we like to wave those "American" flags that were probably made in China. But have you noticed how corporate patriotism has pretty much disappeared over the last 30 years? How we were suckered into lowering our tariffs in the name of "free trade" only to find that our main economic competitors failed to follow suit? How major corporations moved their operations out of the country to find cheaper labor and tax benefits?

 

Is there even such a thing as corporate citizenship? There doesn't seem to be any if you look at these corporations' actions, but apparently the Supreme Court seems to support this concept with the Citizens United decision.

[NJCubScouter 1389]

I do not think it is "unpatriotic" to buy a foreign car if that is the best car at the best price at the time you are shopping for a car.

 

I do think it is a little disappointing for the BSA, an organization that is supposed to personify America and has long touted its buy-American policy, to quietly drop that idea and expect nobody to notice. Not surprising, but disappointing.

 

Sherminator, one interesting thing about the Citizens United decision was that corporations have the "rights" of citizens, but where are the "obligations" of citizens that are supposed to go with them? As any First Class scout knows, the rights and obligations of of citizenship are supposed to go hand in hand, but I don't see that in this Supreme Court decision. Talk about "entitlements."

[OldGreyEagle 5]

Unfortunately Bando, all consumerism is local. The three American made cars I have owned, the AMC, the Buick and Ford all died before 75, 000 miles, the Honda, Toyota and Nissan went over 100,000 before they were sold and I never heard back from the owners.

 

I guess buying American made would help your bottom line and that of the mechanics in my area, call me a commie, but I am not sure I am ready to buy American just because you want me too and not because you have a competitive product

[Scoutfish 16]

Define an "American Company".

 

It's an arguement tnat has long been going on in the NASCAR forums ..ever since Toyota came to the truck series.

 

Examples:

 

General Motors: Basically founded in America, corporate offices herre, but ( look it up) majority of all production based outside America. Why? Cause they can pay less money to many workers who do not benefit from laws like workers comp, minimun wages, Employment laws concerning overtime or hours, holidays, etc.., But the money that is spent, is spent outside the country and the workers spend their paychecks on their local stores, communities and such.

 

GM lays off thousands upon thousand of American workers..and the geniouses in charge cannot figure out why sales went down. Umm..who has a job to buy the cars that were made outside the country? Now all the unemployed are on unemployment which only covers 70% of what they used to make if they are lucky, and money is sooo tight, they pinch every penny.

 

Then take Toyota, Nissan, and Honda. Formed/ founded outside America, yet they build factories in America, hire American workers who in turn spend money at their local stores, local economy, etc..

 

Simply put, Nissan, Honda, and especially Toyota are paying Americans to build cars which supports the American economy.

 

GM is paying foriegners to build cars which supports foreign economies.

 

Now , the arguement about where the final profits go doesn't stick either: The executives at GM do not share their bonuses and saleries any more than the executives at Toyota! Besides, most executives leep their monies in offshore accounts which also avoid US taxes.

 

So, from a socioeconomical point of veiw, or just a "who pays Americans to work " point of view...which company is More American....

The one by namesake, or the one by employee support?

 

In the end, I am like NJ who will buy the best vehicle for the best price and best value at the time I buy it.

 

I owe it to myself to do that!

[packsaddle 753]

I'm not sure what the market has to do with patriotism. But given the direction of the discussion, Beavah mentioned, " I'd have let GM and Chrysler go down hard." and I would have as well. OGE, I'm the guy who buys your great used import cars, wheels that will last almost forever, and me staying out of debt in the process. Thanks.

And while Columbia may be the gem of the ocean, that coffee comes from Colombia. Sometimes there just isn't much domestic stuff to buy at all, although if energy was priced according to its true value, the domestic goods and foods that we DO produce would probably be competitive with imports. But left alone, the market will eventually address all of that...it won't be much fun.

 

To me it would have been patriotic to allow the market (our great American economic system, love it or leave it) to do what it was about to do and let the failed businesses and banks fail. I think people are slowly realizing (too late) that properties built using loans based in deception may never find resolution. And they shouldn't. Regarding the deficits, as I have written before, all the Bush - and now Obama - deficits are going to do is to steal wealth from future generations. I am saddened that Obama is following those Bush (and others before that) strategies. At least he didn't hit us with wage and price controls like Nixon did.

 

NJ, I agree with your comments about corporations. I might add that while they have the same rights as citizens, their lifespans are without limit and they have immense influence, far more than most citizens. At the same time, they have no sense of conscience save for those of the leaders which are mercurial at best, but seem mostly to be driven by greed. I'd like to think that real citizens are better. Perhaps I'm wrong.

In essence, we have given citizenship to machines with replaceable human brains, no conscience, limitless age, and enormous power. This is exactly where the market could help to 'level the playing field' but corporate and other political influence has perverted it with sweetheart deals (bailouts for example), subsidies, outright earmark funding, or just good-ol'-boy preferential treatment.

 

So whenever I hear talk of patriotism being connected to what we buy as opposed to some things that were supposed to be far more important (you know like those so-called 'values' we think scouting is imparting to boys), I just roll my eyes and glance down the street to my neighbor who continues to fly the American flag in his front lawn - on the same staff and just underneath the confederate flag. He's a good ol' Southern home-grown ultra-fundamentalist-Christian-racist Tea-party patriot. But he drives an import. Boggles the mind.(This message has been edited by packsaddle)

[NJCubScouter 1389]

Just to make things more complicated, between my wife and I, we have a Ford and a Toyota. So if anyone does measure patriotism by what car you drive, I'm not sure whether my cup is half-full or half-empty.

[Bando 21]

"Unfortunately Bando, all consumerism is local. The three American made cars I have owned, the AMC, the Buick and Ford all died before 75, 000 miles, the Honda, Toyota and Nissan went over 100,000 before they were sold and I never heard back from the owners."

 

Well, we've recently put two Pontiacs into the ground at 200,000 miles each, and just purchased a new GM car made end-to-end in Lansing, Michigan. And also have a 25-year-old Mercury at 100,000 miles, and expect to get another 50,000 out of it. But anecdotal evidence only goes so far, and it seems you're already convinced American cars are inferior. I'm not going to change your mind.

 

It's far too easy for people outside this region to say they think the American auto companies deserve whatever they get. But when I look at an entire economy which depends on the auto companies, whether it be businesses who depend on auto business, medical and legal people whose clients are predominantly auto, even down to brick and mortar small businesses... You don't see that. We do. We see empty storefronts and freeways that don't have rush hour anymore. Growing up in Michigan, it was rare that I knew anybody who didn't have at least one parent who worked in an auto or auto-dependent field. Everybody here has a stake in what happens to the auto industry, and we care that our government would do what it could to make sure those jobs had a fighting chance of staying in the United States instead of passively letting things die and watch another country's workforce gobble it up. If the United States is serious about at least maintaining what little portion of our industrial economy we have left instead of becoming a complete and total consumer economy, it's in our interest to save our auto industry and help it revamp into a viable and sustainable entity for the future. Yes, mistakes were made, but that's how you learn and retool, right? I don't think we want to see an America where we don't even make our own cars anymore. And it's far too simplistic to say that GM etc. aren't building cars in America and the foreign companies are, because that's far from being a blanket, accurate statement.

 

So, yes, we get a bit defensive when people take almost pure glee in talking about buying foreign cars and following it up with snide remarks about how the American auto industry was poorly managed, or how car x, y, or z they bought at some point in time didn't hold up, and then rub it in our face that our region deserves what we get. "I say let 'em crash!" OK, thanks for the support. This matters to us. And bailing out the auto industry meant bailing out more than a couple big corporations. Buying an American car isn't so much patriotism as it is an investment in your own economy, ensuring that America actually produces instead of just consuming.