BSA councils attempt to defraud public for funds

[Hiromi 9]

Lisabob,

 

That is all well and good. But sometimes a law is so vile, so against higher principles, that a little bit of civil disobedience might be a good thing. From the Boston tea party to the philosophies of Thoreau and Gandhi and MLK, disobedience to law and order are some of our nations greatest contributions.

 

My town Galesburg was a central hub of the Under-ground rail road. We were founeded by New York abolitionists and followers of John Brown.

 

I dont think teaching the boys that civil disobedience is against the Scout law is correct.

 

Mindless obedience unto itself is a dangerous mandate- and the two interpretations could be the difference between a Hitler Youth and a Boy Scout.

 

I'll bet your fellow travelers agree with that.

 

Pappy

(This message has been edited by Pappy)

[Beavah 205]

Yah, again, I think there's a difference between arguing what the regulation is and what makes for the best public policy, eh? Let's not try to quash the public policy discussion with temporary legalism. It's that public policy discussion that gets laws changed, eh?

 

Merlyn is right about the HUD regulation, but the regulation applies to HUD in its distribution of funds, not to the BSA - it's HUDs role to do due diligence. And we've already established that within the target community, it is altogether likely that the BSA was truly able to deliver services to any boy who wanted to participate. So accusations of "fraud" are just a bit trumped up, eh?

 

Practically speakin', of course, if good folks didn't occasionally bend a social service regulation to do what was right by a kid or family, the system would be even more of a disaster than it is now, eh? So let's not be gettin' all hyper over Obedient when there's also Helpful, Friendly, Kind, Thrifty, Brave, helping others at all times, Mentally Awake and Morally Straight to be considered.

 

Merlyn, if yeh believe in Affirmative Action, or Social Security, or Medicaid, or Federal Student Loans to attend an all-women's college, then you are allowing da government to discriminate in order to target services for a specific group of people. Because they need it, because it makes for good public policy, because a majority feels like it, whatever. But yeh can't allow discrimination in one area without considerin' whether it should apply in another. If it's OK to deny a majority-white firm a contract to favor a majority-black firm because it serves a public purpose, then it's OK to finance a soccer program targeting Latino children who are religious, or to give Pell Grants or GI Bill funds to attend Georgetown.

 

The test for public policy is whether it serves a public purpose. The needs of kids in the Latino HUD families are real, and reachin' them even through a church-based or religious program (because that's how best to reach them!) serves a public purpose.

 

But if legality is your only test for ethics, that's fine, eh? Because as you know, the trend in law and case law is slowly but steadily against you. As those laws change, are you going to keep arguin' based on law? Or are you going to change your ethics then and start arguin' based on principle and public good?

 

Beavah

 

[MarkS 11]

Merlyn,

 

In your research have you verified that all funds have been used for...

 

"Over a 1, 2, or 3-year period, as selected by the grantee, not less than 70 percent of CDBG funds must be used for activities that benefit low- and moderate-income persons. In addition, each activity must meet one of the following national objectives for the program: benefit low- and moderate-income persons, prevention or elimination of slums or blight, or address community development needs having a particular urgency because existing conditions pose a serious and immediate threat to the health or welfare of the community for which other funding is not available."

 

Or are you just discriminating against the BSA? Are you really concerned whether the funds are put to good use or are you just concerned that the BSA doesn't get to use them?

[MarkS 11]

Beavah said, "If community polarization and animosity is your goal, yeh might be doing a good job. If service to the community and to children is your goal, I reckon yeh should be ashamed."

 

Why the heck should he care about the communities. The guy lives in Minnesota, not Santa Maria, California or Pike Peak. What the scouts can do for those communities is not important. In the grand scheme of things, it doesn't affect his.(This message has been edited by MarkS)

[Merlyn_LeRoy 72]

Beavah writes:

Merlyn is right about the HUD regulation, but the regulation applies to HUD in its distribution of funds, not to the BSA - it's HUDs role to do due diligence

 

I see this all the time - when the BSA charters a pack to a public school, it's ALWAYS the SCHOOL'S fault, never the BSA's fault, even though the BSA is the one who neglects to inform the public school that atheists can't join the school's pack.

 

Now, it's HUD's fault, NOT the BSA's fault, when the BSA falsely signs a nondiscrimination agreement that it has no intention of upholding. No, it's not the fault of the BSA councilmembers who commit fraud and sign a nondiscrimination agreement, it's HUD's fault.

 

You people can't even see criminal behavior when it comes to the BSA. Defraud the public? Hey, fine, if it increases our declining cub scout membership. After all, what's a little fraud and violating the civil rights of atheists if it helps get more kids into our program to develop good morals?

 

Now, if you'll pardon me, my irony meter just exploded.

[evmori 11]

You achieved in stopping the BSA from putting on a clinic for kids Merlyn. And you did it by not knowing all the facts & tossing out the discrimination hand grenade. Good job! I'm sure those kids love you & want to thank you for stopping their clinic.

 

Ed Mori

1 Peter 4:10

[Merlyn_LeRoy 72]

Ed, the Los Padres council never heard a word from me. A city official contacted them on whether atheists could join, and the council responded by cancelling the program. Why'd they cancel the program, Ed?

 

And I keep telling people that the money will be re-allocated to an HONEST organization that will honor their word to follow the HUD requirements, instead of the dishonest frauds at the BSA, so kids aren't losing out on anything except the opportunity to be part of a dishonest, immoral private club that pretends to build "character."

[local1400 10]

Merlyn wrote "You people can't even see criminal behavior when it comes to the BSA." Nope. I can't see it, when it pales in comparison to the criminal behavior of our elected officials or corporate America perpetrated almost daily.(This message has been edited by local1400)

[Beavah 205]

I'm sorry, Merlyn. Yeh keep making a claim that the BSA "signed nondiscrimination agreements" but I haven't seen any evidence of that. I haven't been willin' to dig into this as far as I have some of your prior allegations, but it strikes me from the way these things are usually handled that there probably were no such agreements. Do yeh have a reference or are yeh just making an assumption?

 

And I keep telling people that the money will be re-allocated to an HONEST organization that will honor their word to follow the HUD requirements

 

Maybe, maybe not, eh? The small amount of money involved may be consumed in staff time just to solicit new proposals.

 

But yeh also have to consider whether any re-allocated money will be used better. An organization may meet your unique definition of honest, and then spend the money for 10 hours of staff "overhead" time with very little to show for it. After all, a lot of programs that provide services to urban youth do it with paid staff, rather than leveragin' it with a lot of volunteers. Me, I'd rather see my tax money used as well as possible to serve kids, rather than simply allocated to serve ideology.

 

Beavah

 

[evmori 11]

You should be on dancing with the stars Merlyn! You'd win!

[Merlyn_LeRoy 72]

local1400 writes:

Nope. I can't see it, when it pales in comparison to the criminal behavior of our elected officials or corporate America perpetrated almost daily.

 

Ah, I see, the BSA can be dishonest as long as even more dishonest people can be pointed to. It's OK to steal people's wallets as long as other people rob banks.

 

You know, maybe you should join an organization that teaches ethics. The BSA seems to have warped you.

 

Beavah writes:

Yeh keep making a claim that the BSA "signed nondiscrimination agreements" but I haven't seen any evidence of that.

 

Because you deliberately aren't looking.

 

I haven't been willin' to dig into this as far as I have some of your prior allegations, but it strikes me from the way these things are usually handled that there probably were no such agreements. Do yeh have a reference or are yeh just making an assumption?

 

http://www.hud.gov/offices/cpd/communitydevelopment

HUD on CDBGs

 

http://www.hud.gov/offices/cpd/communitydevelopment/rulesandregs/laws/sec5309.cfm

nondiscrimination reqs for the above

 

And I keep telling people that the money will be re-allocated to an HONEST organization that will honor their word to follow the HUD requirements

 

Maybe, maybe not, eh?

 

What do you mean, "maybe not"? Are you saying the city manager lied to me when she wrote "This funding will be reallocated to other eligible non-profit agencies at the next City Council meeting"?

 

But yeh also have to consider whether any re-allocated money will be used better.

 

Better than inflating the membership numbers of a dishonest, private organization? I'd say anything short of embezzlement would be an improvement.

 

An organization may meet your unique definition of honest

 

As opposed to YOUR unique definition, where BSA officials can try to use funds that require nondiscrimination on the basis of religion to pay for a "no atheists allowed" BSA program?

 

Me, I'd rather see my tax money used as well as possible to serve kids, rather than simply allocated to serve ideology.

 

Like the BSA's ideology? Oh, another special exemption on your part. The BSA can do no wrong in your eyes.

 

Ed babbles:

You should be on dancing with the stars Merlyn!

 

What are you babbling about now, Ed?

 

 

[Beavah 205]

Yah, OK, so I spent a few minutes wading through the HUD CDBG regulations.

 

It's important to understand the way these things work, eh? The Department issues grants to various organizations and agencies that are applying for monies to meet the goals and purposes of the Act.

 

The BSA in each of the cases mentioned is not a CDBG grant recipient, eh? Rather, the cities of Santa Maria and Colorado Springs are the grant recipients. As grant recipients, the two cities agree to HUD regulations that prohibit discrimination between program beneficiaries based on religious belief. The BSA itself is not a party to the HUD grant nor directly subject to the HUD regulations.

 

The municipalities in each case allocate HUD grant monies according to the local needs and the terms of their grant and the grant regulations, hiring contractors like the BSA to provide services. So the cities hire a contractor to repair HUD housing units, or hire a group like the BSA to provide soccer clinics. It is altogether likely that the BSA was never asked by the cities to certify non-discrimination based on religion. Just not the sort of thing that typically comes up, eh? If Merlyn has any real evidence that the cities demanded and were given such a statement by one of the BSA councils, he should feel free to share that, eh? But thus far, it looks like he has not been able to produce any.

 

Ergo, no fraud. And, to be honest, Merlyn's accusations of fraud sure look an awful lot like libel.

 

Significantly, as I read this, the cities could still choose to contract with the BSA. There is no obligation that an individual contractor not discriminate, just that the city in its administration of the grant not discriminate. A city, for example, could use several different contractors to provide the same services to different groups. The city could contract with a Muslim group to provide counseling services to Muslim residents, a Christian group to provide counseling to Christians, and a University to provide counseling services to everyone else. In fact, I believe that sort of thing happens relatively frequently, especially with denominational contractors like Catholic Social Services. So long as the city did not discriminate in provision of services, the individual contractors may indeed discriminate or be used to provide 'targeted' services.

 

So if the BSA is providing soccer clinics for the faithful Latino community and Boys & Girls clubs are providing soccer clinics for other program beneficiaries, I'm not sure there's necessarily any problem here at all. At least not any federal one. And of course we'd need a real, live program beneficiary to truly be discriminated against in order for this to be actionable, eh? I reckon Merlyn hasn't found one of those. With the recent federal court rulings on standing, I'm not sure Merlyn would have standing to bring a complaint, eh?

 

Once again, it seems like Merlyn's case is badly overstated, eh?

 

Beavah

 

[evmori 11]

[ Returned to sender for editing ] (This message has been edited by a staff member.)

[local1400 10]

Merlyn writes "You know, maybe you should join an organization that teaches ethics." I am ecstatic you have suggested that. Well I've been to the site of that group you hold in such high esteem, Scouting for All. I couldn't find any information on a SFA unit in my area. I actually couldn't find any info on any unit in any area, or a council either. What kind of structure does this organization have? Now I am not an attorney, but as a Union Officer I am fairly well versed in such things as labor agreements, the CFR for transportation, as well as FELA and The NRLA. So I enjoy a frivolous lawsuit as much as the next guy. And since there appears to be NO SFA "troop" in my hometown, it appears that Scouting for All isn't really for ALL. They are excluding me and anyone in my town who may want to join! THATS DISCRIMINATION! But back to organizational structure, I didn't see any Uniforms, Handbooks, or other useful information. All I saw was anti-BSA propaganda and bumper stickers and 'send money now to end this travesty enforced by the BSA'. Now if SFA is really for All, let me ask you something Merlyn. Suppose you have an 11 year old son going on a SFA outing. And I was his leader-a proud member of NAMBLA. Would you feel comfortable? It is for all, after all. How about you, self-proclaimed atheist. Suppose we were at that great SFA Scout Reservation, Camp Is-No-God, and we were bunkmates for the week. And all week I preached Christ crucified and raised from the dead non-stop, would I still be welcome? I am sure you are educated and fairly intelligent Merlyn, so why is your life's calling to change and blaspheme the BSA? Can't you get involved in Healthcare for all, affordable prescription medication for our seniors, how about social security for Americans, jobs for American men and women, less profits for oil companies, immigration and a virtual cornucopia of issues of much more importance and impact than BSA's policies? What are you doing to eliminate those all men or still even all white men golf courses? And Merlyn, though you deny Him, His hand is outstretched to you-take hold for the days are short.

[Merlyn_LeRoy 72]

[ Returned to sender for editing ] (This message has been edited by a staff member.)