Scouting for alternatives

[Kahuna 172]

Aloha, Prairie Scouter,

 

You probably could get a better answer from Miki, but I can partially answer your question. The BSA began diverging almost at once from B-P's methods. That's what happens when you hire a lawyer to be the first Chief Scout Executive. West's idea of how to expand scouting around the country involved a lot of professional help. Of course, the U.S. is a much larger geographic entity and that had something to do with it, too.

 

Looking at B-P Scouts website, it looks to be more an alternative for those who disagree with the British Scouts than the BSA. I think most Americans would have trouble with the "duty to the Queen." I can't tell if they are less discriminatory than BSA or not (I do see they allow mixed sex or single sex groups). Certainly B-P thought a belief in God was essential and have no idea what he thought about gays (although I don't imagine he would have considered them good leaders given the thinking of his time), but the BSA did not try to make itself different, it just evolved in a different way than British Scouting.

 

In any organization, once you hire people to run it their primary job becomes to keep their job. I think that is one of the major reasons it played out so differently over here.

 

[Kudu 186]

Prairie_Scouter writes:

 

Ok, so I'm kind of confused. I visited a website about the Baden-Powell Scouts. They say that their organization is based on the teachings and writings of Lord Baden Powell. Yes, I can see the obvious differences and similarities, but there's some history here, I suppose, that I'm missing. If (and maybe I'm assuming wrongly here) BSA is based on the teachings and writings of Baden-Powell, and Baden-Powell Scouts says the same thing, how did they end up going down different paths?

 

Mostly because of the early conservative Christian influence of the YMCA and, as Kahuna hints, the iron fist of James West which transformed BSA Scouting into a professional monopoly corporation rather than the all-volunteer movement that B-P envisioned.

 

Baden-Powell Scout programs (BPSA) are based on B-P's Program as it was practiced while he was still alive. It allows changes primarily only for advances in 1) Health & Safety 2) Environmental Concerns (LNT), and 3) Lightweight Materials.

 

A few of the differences between the BSA and the Baden-Powell program are as follows.

 

1. ADVANCEMENT

 

Tenderfoot through First Class was, in the beginning, similar in many ways. Compare the advancement requirements with the early BSA handbooks with the following URL:

 

http://www.inquiry.net/traditional/handbook/index.htm

 

Currently, a few of the differences in Tenderfoot-First Class advancement are:

 

a) Observation: These include Kim's Game, and Tracking requirements such as "Follow a minimum one mile of Woodcraft Signs in about 25 minutes."

 

b) Signalling: Surprisingly, Morse, semaphore, manual alphabet (American Sign Language), and Indian Sign Language were not part of the program in England, but were used in B-P's program elsewhere in the British Empire while B-P was alive, and are therefore included in the BPSA program in other countries including the USA.

 

c) Retesting: B-P Scouts are retested on the Tenderfoot requirements as the second to the last requirement of Second Class, and retested on the Second Class requirements as the second to the last requirement for First Class. The retesting is done by the Patrol Leader and can take the form of helping the PL teach these skills to other Scouts.

 

d) Expedition Requirements: These journeys are the final test for each Advancement Award. They are planned by the Scouts being tested and are unaccompanied by adults. BPSA-USA has modified the First Class Journey to include two adults who "shadow" the Scouts from a distance, but do not interact with them in any way except in an emergency.

 

e) No Scoutmaster Conferences or Boards of Review: These exist in Baden-Powell's program only as a Tenderfoot and Second Class interview with the Scoutmaster to discuss the meaning of Scout Law, and a Tenderfoot and Second Class review by the Court of Honor (the Patrol Leaders' Court) as to how the Scout is working out in his new Patrol.

 

2. IDEALS

 

a) Scout Law:

 

i) B-P's Scout Law is expressed in sentences rather than single words. This makes the meaning of some Laws a little different, for instance "Kind" vs. "A Scout is kind to animals," and "Cheerful" vs. "A Scout smiles and whistles under all difficulties."

 

ii) The BSA added two Laws, "Brave" and "Reverent" which are not part of B-P's Scout Law.

 

b) Scout Promise:

 

i) The "Three Points": BSA added "To keep myself physically strong, mentally awake, and morally straight." This made it necessary to change the BSA's Three Points into: 1) Duty to God, Country & Scout Law; 2) Duty to Others; 3) Duty to Self. The Three Points of Baden-Powell's Scout Promise are the literal Three Points: 1) To do my duty to God and my country; 2) To help other people at all times; and 3) To obey the Scout Law.

 

ii) Outlanders: The Promise was reworded for cultures that do not recognize a duty to a king and/or the god named "God."

 

3. PATROL SYSTEM

 

B-P's Patrol System was not used in the BSA until the late 1920's. Prior to what we now call "The Eight Methods," Scoutmastership was based on the "Six Principles of Boy-Work," most likely a YMCA theory. The Scoutmaster divided the Troop up into Patrols by height & weight, social class, or one of the other official BSA "Grouping Standards." "If height is used, boys of fifty-six and a half inches in height and classifying under ninety pounds in weight, might be grouped together. Also boys of sixty-three inches in height and coming within the one hundred and ten pound weight. This standard will doubtless become the real basis of all groupings in the future, but as yet it needs more demonstration in order that the various classifications may be made accurately."

 

The BSA's Six Principles of Boy-Work were the exact opposite of Baden-Powell's Patrol System: "First, there must be a clear plan well thought out, progressive in its stages with an aim for each stage. In other words no man need try to work with a group of boys unless he knows what he wants to do, not only in outline but in detail. He must have these details in mind and so well worked out in his thought knowing exactly what comes next....as to be master of the situation at all times and to be the recognized leader....That is to say, he should tell the boys what the game is and how it is to be played, getting their approval and agreement to get in on the deal [emphasis added]."

 

The BSA instructed the "Scout Master" to undermine the Patrol Leader's authority by delegating to the group and not to the Patrol Leader:

 

"Care should be taken by the Scout Master that the patrol leaders do not have too great authority in the supervision of their patrols. The success of the troop affairs and supervision of patrol progress is, in the last analysis, the responsibility of the Scout Master and not that of the patrol leader. There is also a danger, in magnifying the patrol leader in this way, of inordinately swelling the ordinary boy's head. The activities of the patrol should not be left to the judgment of any patrol leader, and if the Scout Master wants to delegate the work of the patrol and troop, the whole group should reach a decision in regard to the plan [emphasis added]."

 

For these and other excerpts from the BSA's first Handbook for Scout Masters, 1st Edition (1913), see:

 

http://inquiry.net/adult/methods/1st/index.htm

 

The lack of youth leadership in the early BSA accounts for some of the differences in BSA and Baden-Powell terminology. In most of the world "Tenderfoot, Second Class, etc, are referred to as "Awards," and a Scout's or Scouter's leadership position is referred to as his "Rank."

 

William "Green Bar Bill" Hillcourt is called the father of the BSA's Patrol Method because he brought Baden-Powell's Patrol System with him from Denmark. One difference between his system and Baden-Powell's system is that B-P appointed the Patrol Leaders and the Troop Leader (SPL). In Hillcourt's system, the Patrol elects the Patrol Leader, and the Patrol Leaders elect the SPL.

 

4. UNIFORMS

 

In the beginning both the BSA and B-P Scout Uniforms were designed primarily for the outdoors, and were something that boys actually wanted to wear.

 

a) Class A

 

i) Hat: BPSA hat is what we call the "campaign hat." Hats are not required, but that is the only hat allowed to be worn with the Class A Uniform.

 

ii) Shirt: Awards are placed in different positions rather than on one pocket as in the BSA. They all remain on the shirt except that First Class replaces Second Class, and Bushman's Cord replaces Scout Cord. Public Service Proficiency Badges are worn on the left arm, and Scoutcraft Proficiency Badges are worn on the right arm. Senior Scout Proficiency Badges replace the equivalent Scout Section Proficiency Badges as they are earned.

 

Diagrams can be found at:

 

http://inquiry.net/uniforms/traditional/placement.htm

 

Some photographs at:

 

http://inquiry.net/uniforms/traditional/index.htm

 

iii) Neckerchief: 32" X 32" square.

 

iv) Pants: Dark blue BDUs. The color of B-P's Scout Pants.

 

Seems like the main differences have to do with the discriminatory practices of BSA, and some things having to do with what look likes a greater respect for nature in the Baden-Powell Scouts. How is that it that they diverged on these things?

 

It is the "main difference" only to American eyes. The Chief Commissioners of both the BPSA-UK and the British Boy Scouts (a conservative Christian association) tell me that these anti-discrimination policies reflect the growth of the influence of the EU on English human-rights legislation. You would be wrong to assume that these policies are unique to the BPSA. As far as I know, most (if not all but the BSA) WOSM and WFIS Scouting associations in the Western world do not discriminate except for "Duty to God." However, North American BPSA associations have optional "Outlander" Promises and some WOSM associations have "grand-fathered" BP-era Promises that do not include "God."

 

Despite his fame as a military general, B-P was born into perhaps the most influential religious-progressive family in England. See:

 

http://inquiry.net/ideals/beads.htm

 

Kudu

[Kudu 186]

Prairie_Scouter, I also posted to the "Girls in Boy Scouts" thread some additional historical information about how girls fit into Baden-Powell Scouts. Like religion, this is an area of Scouting in which B-P was too progressive for his times.

 

This post also contains information about "Independent Pathfinders," a generic Baden-Powell program. Independent Pathfinding is strictly a "do-it-yourself" endeavor, and I include it mostly because it offers information about the Sections for younger ages.

 

See:

 

http://www.scouter.com/forums/viewThread.asp?threadID=120983&p=1

 

Kudu

[Prairie_Scouter 10]

Wow, Kudu, what a wealth of information. Thanks for all the information, and the time it must have taken to plink it into your keyboard

 

This'll take me awhile to wade through. Thanks again!

[scoutingagain 20]

" it just evolved in a different way than British Scouting. "

 

Kahuna, I hope your not implying there was a lack of "intelligent design" on this side of the pond.

 

SA