An Analogy - Is BSA a Sinking Ship?

[Bob White 20]

Hunt

I and other have often engaged in meaningful and helpful conversations, but when posters such as jkhny offer nothing but rants and generalizations there is no way to respond to this issue since the issue is so poorly represented. The only option left is to show the flaw in the rant itself.

 

The solution to improving membership is obvious. The local unit has to do a better job delivering the program. Kids do not know about the BSA when they join, they know the promise and expectations of scouting that are in the handbook. If you want more scouts you need to do a better job of scouting in the unit.

 

For the life of me I cannot fathom how anyone can think that a SE who give a false membership report in Atlants ahs anu effect at all on the quality of your next meeting, and that is all the scout cares about.

 

 

[evmori 11]

Sure little Johnny wants the promise and fun of Scouting. But it's mom & dad who make the decision & write the check. And if mom & dad are hearing on the 6 PM news the BSA is fudging numbers & a top BSA exec has been accused of kiddie porn & a unit leader across the country was arrested for molesting Scouts in his home don't you think they are going tell little Johnny to join the band? If you can't fathom how this can happen, that's just plain sad.

 

Ed Mori

Troop 1

1 Peter 4:10

[Bob White 20]

Thats silly.

 

Teachers have been found guilty of sex crimes and millions of kids go to school each day. Ministers ahve been found guilty and millions of kids go tio church every Sabbath. To think that a parents in Oklahoma pull kids from scouts because a Scout leader in Michigan was arrested is just not reasonable.

 

Parents keep kids out of scouts when the local program is bad. Troops that do not follow the BSA program struggle to keep 6 or 7 scouts total while units that follow the program are always welcoming more and more scouts.

 

Its all about the troop program. Blaming others for a unit's inability to deliver scouting is just a smoke screen to draw attention away from the real problem, local leadership.

 

 

[Fuzzy Bear 12]

The numbers are down, the money is way up, there are scandals, there are thousands that give unselfishly of their time, there is the horrendous story of the Cub Leader from Kansas, yet I know a guy that spent his retirement helping Scouts until the day he died, there is the guy from NY that abused a Scout, yet I personally know many Scouters that give freely of their time and money just to be a part of the organization in any way they can, National doesn't do as we wish them to do but National also gives us the very program that so many have loved over the years, society is changing and National isn't changing but National is part of the same society, so change it must and has and will, I know a Troop that is not doing well nor have they for the last ten years, I also know ten Troops that are doing very well and have done so for the past ten years, trying to generalize what is happening without allot of facts is a difficult task. Trying to generalize about what is right is just as difficult. Put you hands on the side of the ship and try to figure out if has sunk or is moving or is completely out of the water first before drawing conclusions as to its' operations. The ship is large and has thousands of rooms and people from all walks of life that are doing many things both good and bad. It is unfair to scuttle the ship just because we have an opinion based on the appearance of rust and we have drawn a conclusion that it must be going down.

 

FB

 

 

FB

[evmori 11]

What's silly is to compare school attendance & church attendance to Scouting. Attending school is required. Either private, public or home schooled. Some people can't afford private schools so their kids go to the public school who had the teacher arrested for being a pedophile. Some people can afford private school & will send their kid to the private school that had a teacher arrested for having kiddie porn on his/her home PC because they don't like the public school system & don't or can't home school. Almost all of the ministers (priests) who were abusing kids were Catholics & going to church for Catholics is required. Scouting isn't a requirement for youth.

 

So making those comparisons is silly. Yes what does happen nationally will effect the local units regardless of how good a program the local unit have! Will it effect all local unit? No. But the numbers are down nationally. That's not silly. That's a fact.

 

Sure a bad program in a unit will keep kids away. But so will bad press.

 

Ed Mori

Troop 1

1 Peter 4:10

[Bob White 20]

"Almost all of the ministers (priests) who were abusing kids were Catholics & going to church for Catholics is required. Scouting isn't a requirement for youth."

 

WHAT?????!!!

Where do you get this dribble? "Almost all the ministers abusing kids were Catholics"? I can think of few million people you owe a big apology to after you yank your foot out of your mouth.

 

I would love to see the data you have that drove you to say something as base as that.

 

As far as going to church being "required", were you aware that according to a national study by the Catholic church that the latest estimates are that only 18% of Catholics in the US attend church regularly?

 

It is not a requirement. There are no church police, no one strips you of your catholicism. There is no earthly fine or imprisonment.

 

Going to church is a choice based on person values, and a sense of duty and reverence. Sounds a little like scouting now doesn't it Ed?

 

Why is it so hard for you to see that to a scout as well as to the parents the only thing they judge scouting by is the unit meetings and activities of their local unit?

 

How can you not know that scouts do not stay in units with bad leaders or poor programs?

 

 

 

[NJCubScouter 1389]

How can you not know that scouts do not stay in units with bad leaders or poor programs?

 

Yeah, I hear that some troops have such poor leaders (at least one of whom thinks he knows everything about being a great leader) and/or poor programs, that older Scouts get bored, and quit the troop to join the Sea Scouts...

[madkins007 10]

Bob White said "For the life of me I cannot fathom how anyone can think that a SE who give a false membership report in Atlants ahs anu effect at all on the quality of your next meeting, and that is all the scout cares about."

 

The PR and similar problems at the National level may be difficult to quantify, but could include:

 

- Reduced corporate giving, which will impact summer camps and other programs that depend on this influx of funds.

 

- Hiring paid staff. Good people do not want to work for companies in the news for bad reasons, especially at the starting pay of the BSA.

 

- Reduced social approval of Scouting. We've been sliding in public perception for a couple decades now. Calling someone a 'boy scout' is almost certainly meant as a slur. It is odd- there is still the 'old ladies across the street, tie knots well' perception as a helpful, skilled youth, but mostly we are portrayed in a vaguely comical or negative way. National's actions don't do a lot to counteract this.

 

- Recruitment. It may not be impacting most of our recruiting (school drives, peer-to-peer, etc.), but it certainly is not helping to pull youth from the street. In our heyday, youth LOOKED for units to join, often after buying the Handbook at a local drug or book store. How many of our units today get youth knocking on their doors like that?

 

- Warning flags to mom and dad. No one story will do this, but the constant bombardment of stories about individuals, corporate policy, and so on have a cumulative effect.

 

Churches and schools are another 'apples and aardvarks' comparison- especially since in most of those cases it is easy to say that it was just that one person or that one church, not the entire structure of religion or education.

 

- Sapping a certain 'something' from the volunteers and members. I love my job and my co-workers. However, when I hear of my company doing stuff that I think is questionable, it affects my enthusiasm and/or my trust and loyalty to it. I think a lot of volunteers do the same and are just tired of it. Some go into denial, some mentally seperate themselves or the field from National, some back off some in some way, some leave, some never join. Some, of course, are unaffected (maybe).

[jkhny 10]

Well worded Madkins007

 

Now if those are only possible fallouts in a WELL RUN local Scouting program, what do you think is happening right now in Atlanta, Chicago, Alabama, Idaho and others - the places making the news?

 

Our Council hasn't hit that level of publicity (it may yet) but, out of a dozen great properties and camps we're down to 3 and one of those is up for sale. Volunteers fought that sale in court and lost on technicalities.

 

Any "dissidents" opposing that sale have been removed from District and Council positions replaced in name only. Senior volunteers wrote to National protesting these actions an complaining about our SE's behavior. It is a "local" problem (though the same issues were raised in his past Council).

 

One volunteer had his registration revoked after vocally protesting all of this and others were threatened. Real work is not being done. Our District's Pinewood runoff last spring had 19 kids - and no volunteers willing to run it.

 

Cub Scout Day camp - now run at public facilities - had paid staff in charge in two districts because volunteers refused to have responsibility under the conditions existing. Half the kids did Cub Scout Day Camp this year. The Dining Hall had empty seats at Boy Scout Camp this summer in all sessions - we used to be eating on the porch or lawn.

 

Paid staff has turned over almost completedly - left or been pushed. Over 100 volunteers showed up an an Executive Board meeting to protest her firing but the Board ran away - literally. A web site set up to show support had 3-400 entries (at a time when schools were ending and Scouting had been shut down).

 

There are 200 less adult leaders by the OFFICIAL numbers. The truth is probably higher and does not reflect the number of leaders that remain involved ONLY as Unit leaders now, refusing to have anything to do with "Council." Yet we added a District - many believe to show "growth" where none existed. The two split Districts do not have enough volunteers to staff Roundtables and other functions. The Cub Scout Spring activity had to be a "Joint" event and had 1/2 - 2/3 the units they had in previous years. Counts of boys and adults were much lower as well.

 

By OFFICIAL numbers we had delines of 12-18% (depending on the program) comparing counts after charter renewal to 12 months earlier. (forget the meaningless "year end youth served" counts that mean nothing). Somehow we claimed "growth" of 1.4% using those numbers - still short of the 2% goal. We have more than 3000 less scouts than the officially claimed 10,000 - though ther are about 1000 more in non-scouting you may be able to count - if they really exist.

 

Our much touted inner city program - which faded from mention - resurfaced with a paid staffer (and a not mentioned 10 kids).

 

Our District claims of 2190 to achieve "Quality District" status were not supported by official counts showing 1818 or 1826. Clear alterations (in different handwriting and weight) were visible on the copies of the form handed out at a District meeting. Counts after charter renewal were 1529 but after queries about dead units, that dropped to 1249 without explanation. The Executive Board was presented with a package of information documenting "misstatements" and "errors" in our Council's claims but no change is apparent. An "investigation" promised last Spring has yet to be started.

 

An attempt to muster COR's to vote out current leadership failed after they were contacted by Concil leadership and told that a few malcontents were interfering in things and there was no point in them becoming involved. Things were "well run" - take their word.

 

A former Board member of 40 or 50 years service quit in disgust, making his POV known. Others have left less visibly.

 

Needless to say, Scouting is NOT doing well here. Even unit leaders are growing tired of the hypocrisy. FOS numbers have been kept up ONLY by a relentless pursuit of money - that's the only job DE's seem to have. Two Districts showed $0 under leadership inthe last FOS report. Only one made its goal in that category. "Leadership and Family" categories all show fall-offs despite multiple mailings and a phone campaign. Witholding doantions is the ONLY way left to protest.

 

One unit here failed after pleading for help. The DE was around for recruiting to grab forms and funds but that was it. Our former Commmissioner of 20 years was removed and replaced with some 70 or 80 year old guy that doesn't even live here for most of the year. They got no help and died. Another Cub Scout Unit that claimed 50 kids had 8 in the Memorial Day parade. Our Pack which has demamded that rosters be "corrected", with 36 had 27. Gotta wonder.

 

Faced with increasing dissent even from hand-picked Executive Board Members, approval has been gotten from the Council Attorney to have an "Executive Committee" act in place of the full Board. Oversight becomes more and more limited. Of course this is in compliance with Council Bylaws - which nobody has seen in years or can get a copy of.....

 

 

THAT is what is happening in a problem Council where leadership has failed to listen to their volunteers, forced unneeded sales to make financials look better, tried to fake growth where none existed and bully volunteers into submission. But many think that - as in Chicago - it's all a plan to dissolve this once rich Council and merge it out of existence allocating OUR assets as BSA sees fit. Of course it could just be plain old incompetence. Our SE made the same mess of his former Council. Postings here, correspondence and 990 filings will support that contention.

 

And - to give some indicator about the competence of OUR Council leadership, one of our Executive Board was head of "Risk Management" at Jamboree. I don't know the man - the position may have only been honorary - but why on earth would anyone brag about this on their web site? http://www.wpcbsa.org/Highlight/ Unintended irony and after seeing the last post on Jamboree incidents it's clear that a full "spin" campaign is underway on that mess (note that whole category is now archived and not easily seen).

 

 

I can't imaging what Chicago is like where the volunteers voted out the leadership - who won't leave. Or any of the other Councils having problems.

 

Enough facts? all supported by Council documents

 

It's truly sad to see something you care about hurt so badly - for no real reason, simply because an autocratic and incompetent staffer cannot do his job and cannot be removed - and because those that SHOULD intervene refuse to do so.

 

Is this how Scouting should run?

 

How do you change things here? Is change possible?

 

Can ANYONE change things in a situation like this or Chicago (where they DID vote their disapproval and refused to vote in new handpicked leadership - but cannot vote FOR their own choices)?

 

Is the only option to walk away?

 

I - and others concerned with these issues - do not have any solution.

How do you FORCE BSA to follow their own rules and procedures? How do you FORCE them to act "ethically and morally?"

 

And if it can happen in even one Council it can happen in any, it can happen in all.

[Bob White 20]

Perhaps you have not had any unit leadership experience but I have never had a den, pack or troop meeting that depended on Corporate giving, the paid staff at any level of scouting, or affected by 'social approval'.

 

Nor was the recruitment in the units I served ever affected by anything other the quality of the program we delivered.

 

There are no doubt as many or more parents who keep their children from scouting because they were unfortunate enough to have a bad scout leader as there are those that steer away because of the latest media craze. I have little control over news stories but I can control the quality of the program I help deliver.

 

So rather than complain or worry over what you cannot control why not focus on what you can? Learn the actual program, deliver it as it is designed, keep the promise of scouting. That is the responsibility of a unit volunteer.

 

 

[Bob White 20]

And yet councils immediatly surrounding the Chicago Council are doing so much better? They have the same program, they have the same regional support, the same national services? Yet they have growth. Why is that?

 

(This message has been edited by Bob White)

[jkhny 10]

 

From above:

 

"So rather than complain or worry over what you cannot control why not focus on what you can? Learn the actual program, deliver it as it is designed, keep the promise of scouting. That is the responsibility of a unit volunteer. "

 

 

So, finding it impossible to change anything I should not complain or worry, I should simply "go along and do my job" feeling confident that in serving the cause of Scouting in my responsibilities as a mere unit volunteer I am serving the higher good of Scouting? I should put my own individual concerns aside and serve loyally?"

 

 

From fgoodwin connenting on "Scout's Honor" Zeiger's book

 

"While the Boy Scouts are certainly not a malignant organization, they arent a sacred one, either. ...........

 

Another curiosity posed by the book is the manner in which almost all liberals are accused of being extreme individualists. At one point, Zeiger praises the words of Frank Hearn: One may have the right to self-esteem or feeling good but being good-being in a way that permits one to realize institutional goals-is an achievement. One earns self-respect only through the disciplined work of performing institutional duties or achieving institutional ideals.

 

Such words were reminiscent of Julius Evola, a former Italian fascist, when, in Men Among the Ruins, he described the sort of people who supported fascist regimes. The inferior never lives a fuller life than when he feels his existence is subsumed in a greater order endowed with a center; then he feels like a man standing before leaders of men, and experiences the pride of serving as a free man in his proper station, wrote Evola. "

 

Somehow seemed appropriate at this point......

 

 

I can't be the ONLY person really scared by the "logic" of "ignore it all, stop thinking and do your job"

 

No more from me on this thread.

 

It's starting to remind me of that classic saying about compliantly serving the greater good: "Arbeit Macht Frei"

 

A commentary on the "logical" arguments being proffered NOT on the character or actions by any individual or BSA itself.

 

 

 

 

[evmori 11]

Most, if not all the reports of child abuse regarding men of the cloth was in the Catholic church. Big scandal in Boston & many other dioceses.

 

Did the Pope change the rules? Doesn't the Catholic faith interpret the commandment "Keep the Sabbath holy" to mean church attendance on Sunday (or Saturday) is mandatory? Used to be when I was Catholic. That's one of the reasons I switched denominations.

 

Ed Mori

Troop 1

1 Peter 4:10

[Prairie_Scouter 10]

Bob

I can only speak for my local area outside of Chicago, but our District is barely keeping it's head above water membership-wise. The same for the Council. We had a smidge of growth last year, but it looks like we're going to give that back this year. I know it's been very difficult for them to keep the memberhips numbers stable.

 

Regards the affect of BSA National policies on the local unit.

We are fortunate that our troop is considered to have a good program for the Scouts. Yet, we almost lost our CO last year because of the anti-gay policy. I've had one parent decide against bringing his son to our troop because of this policy as well. For a small troop like ours, that makes a difference.

[Hunt 11]

My son's Pack lost a den leader and several boys strictly over the gay membership policy. It was the only reason they left. Things like membership irregularities are not likely to have the same kind of direct effect, but bad PR is bad PR and it tarnishes the overall reputation of the organization. Local units have to work against that.

 

jkhny--I couln't read your last few posts. You'll have to trim it down and make more concise points, or you're really wasting your time.