Problems with Charter Organization

[FScouter 24]

And neither does the charter state that boys in the Scout program own any funds. The charter agreement is a simple document that basically says BSA will provide a program, training, and support for the chartered organization to conduct a Scouting program within their organization. There is no provision at all to support a position that the boys own anything at all. I cannot imagine any court of law ever ruling that the chartered organization absconded with funds owned by the boys in their program.

 

As NJ suggested, a subtle hint that a discussion with the local newspaper reporter might be in order would very likely prompt the CO to give the boys a going-away present.

 

This kind of hassle is the price paid for ignoring the basic principles of the charter agreement.

 

[Proud Eagle 13]

Bob White,

 

When I said normally I had in mind the fact that some time back during one of these legal/financial arguments it was determined that in at least one state the state's laws were such that BSA units were, at least in certain cases, legally separate from the charter organization. I don't remember who it was that made the point or what state it was, but no one managed to refute it at the time.

 

 

OK. Now on to the fun stuff.

 

If the BSA unit and the charter organization are legally and financially the same, that would mean several things. The most important of these would be that the policies of the unit regarding Scout accounts would bind the CO on the same issue. Now the tricky issue is weather or not there is any provision in the unit's policies that specifically states what happens if the boy transfers to another unit. If there is no such provision, then the CO can make any decision they want. If however, the policy states that the Scout may take the funds with them to a their new unit, then it would seem that any funds need to be transferred in this case as well. The real problem would be if traditionally you have allowed transfers of scout account funds, but there is nothing in writing to prove this.

 

I would suggest as proof of the basic principals in my argument the various arguments over governmental entities not being able to charter scout units do to various laws on discrimination. Everyone seemed to pretty easily accept that in those cases, whatever the unit did, the CO was in fact doing. So it would seem the same principal would hold true here as well.

 

The only thing that would thwart all of this is the BSA policies about not being able to enter into contracts on behalf of the unit (since legally there is no such thing). It it possible that the unit leaders that created the policies on scout accounts (and therefore created the possible common law contract) may in fact be personally responsible in this case. (BSA says you can't create or enter into contracts on behalf of the unit or BSA as a unit leader, only on your own behalf.) Now it would take a sharper legal mind than mine to determine if the BSA policy is actually binding in this case, or if the unit does in this case have the power to act on behalf of the CO.

 

Either way the issue is sorted out there are some serious implications. In one way, there is no mechanism preventing COs from using unit funds or equipment for whatever purpose they choose, under any circumstances. On the other hand, if the actions of the unit equate to actions of the CO, then unit leaders would have broad capability to do things that would bind the CO, or cause the CO to become liable for various things.

 

 

I would now like to point out a similar, but in no way related, case.

 

The Army ROTC often has its members complete a form that shows what courses they plan to take when in order to graduate on time. The student sings this form as does the academic adviser. From what I have been told, the Army has several times managed to force universities to allow students to graduate with the degree, because either the university was unable to fulfill its end of the contract (the form never really states it has this binding property), or the student successfully completed their portion of the contract. Even in cases where advisers are not empowered to make such agreements by the university, the Army has been able to force universities to abide by the terms of these "contracts". I doubt one of these cases has ever gone very far in court. In fact I can't say for certain that any of them ever have been decided by a court.

[Bob White 20]

"The student sings this form as does the academic adviser."

 

Now there is an idea whose time has come. Forget all the legal mubo-jumbo that one has to read in a contract. Lets all SING!

 

(to the Tune of "I've Been Working on the Railroad"

 

Oh...I am the party of the first part

and you're the undersigned,

Do agree upon today's date

the things we've here outlined.

take it OGE!(This message has been edited by Bob White)

[pdunbar 10]

Final Conclusions!! First thank you to all of you that sympathize with my problem and have offered me very good suggestions. I wish you part of our troop. I must confess that when I first came here I knew that according to BSA policy I knew where we stood. I just wanted to know some suggestions of dealing with the old CO. Old Bob White is correct in his thoughts and reasoning. Notice, I said he was correct!

We had decided to leave our CO even if it meant losing everthing......which isn't true in itself......we are leaving with the most important thing.........all of the fine boys in our troop. Thank you again

 

PS Not to be flippant but unless I was taught wrongly at Wood Badge, modifications can be made only on rank requirements, but merit badges are not modified. According to a phone conversation with National a few years ago, merit badge counselors have the final say. And BOB WHite would you give the boy the hiking merit badge.

[Fat Old Guy 11]

" In one way, there is no mechanism preventing COs from using unit funds or equipment for whatever purpose they choose, under any circumstances. On the other hand, if the actions of the unit equate to actions of the CO, then unit leaders would have broad capability to do things that would bind the CO, or cause the CO to become liable for various things."

 

We need the Man O'Steele to weigh in on this one. We were told locally that the CO cannot and may not touch troop funds, even if the troop folds.

[Bob White 20]

pdunbar

I will pass any scout who completes the requirement as stated in the requirements of the merit badge..no more and no less, as required of any merit badge counselor and stated in the Merit Badge Counselor Orientation training, the Advancement Committee Policies and Procedures manual and the BSA advancemnt guidelines.

 

Every scout is different and each have their own personal challenges, some vary only a little some a lot. But every scout who completes a merit badge should have done the same requirements. That not all scouts do it as well or as quickly is irrelevent. If you had talked to Terry Lawson the Director of Boy Scout Advancement or if you attend leadership training, you will learn that, with a doctors verification of the medical condition restricting a scout from completeing a requirement a merit badge can be modified or replaced with an alternate badge in order to meet the advancement needs of the individual scout.

 

What I promise you I will do in any situation is follow the scouting program and do everything I can to help each individual scout to grow and succeed.

 

Given only the information you have shared and nothing else, I would pass the scout once he met the requirement. For all you know or shared the scout may not want to be treated differently, but be allowed to show he can achieve the same goals as other scouts despite his special challenges.

 

 

[pdunbar 10]

Bob WHite

 

I do know about the alternative merit badge policy. If Mr. Larsen was the advancement chair 5 years ago, I did talk to him. In my scouter's example, if he took twice as many steps as the average boy is that more or less?

[scoutldr 739]

Rules and Regulations, Article XI, Section 1, Local Council and Unit Finance Clause 2, Disposition of Unit Funds Upon Termination of Local Council or Unit

 

(b) Unit Obligations. In the event of the dissolution of a unit or the revocation or lapse of its charter, the unit committee shall apply unit funds and property to the payment of unit obligations and shall turn over the surplus, if any, to the local council, if there is one, or if there is no local ocuncil, dispose of the same in accordance with the direction of the Executive Board of the Boy Scouts of America. In the case of a chartered organization, any funds or equipment which may have been secured as property of the unit shall be held in trust by the chartering organizaiton or the chartered local council, as may be agreed upon, pending reorganization of the unit or for the promotion of the program of the Boy Scouts of America.

 

© Administration of Local Funds by Corporation. Any property or funds acquired by the Executive Board upon the dissolution of a Scouting unit or local council shall be administered so as to make effective, as far as posssible, the intentions and wishes of the donors.

 

(d) Special Funds. Special funds created for specific purposes, acquired by a unit or local council, shall be vested in a bank, trust company or BSA Intravest Trust, in trust for the use of the unit or the local council, in accordance with the wishes of the donors, with the provision in the statement of the conditions governing the admiinistering of the funds that in the event of the dissolution of the unit or council or revocation or lapse of its charter said trustee or trustees will, after satisfying any clams against such fund, turn over to the Boy Scouts of America the balance for use by the Boy Scouts of America for the benefit of Scouting in such locality and for the specific purposes for which the fund was granted. If there is no suitable opportunity for the use of said fund in such locality, it may be used elsewhere.

 

This is from the "Rules and Regulations", which, as has been alleged, we mere volunteers have no need to see. Our DE copied this and passsed it out at our last District Committee mtg, as it had recently been an issue. I believe that the use of the phrase "secured as property of the unit" is significant, in that it indicates that units can, indeed own property such as funds and equipment. I am correcting my training syllabus accordingly. I will leave it to NJScouter to interpret the fine legal points, but it's pretty clear to me. The troop committee has an obligation to see that the boys get their "Scout Account" money ("special funds"), and the rest goes to the Council, provided there is no intent to resurrect the unit. As BW is fond of saying, unless the posters here can quote the reference, what they post here is just hearsay and opinion. Caveat emptor.(This message has been edited by scoutldr)

[Bob White 20]

Pdunbar

A 4' tall scout will need to take 30% more steps than a scout who is 5'6" to cover the same distance. Should the distance requirement of the hiking merit badge be changed for him as well?

 

The requirement says nothing about steps, it says you must travel a specific distance. You should not be altering requirements unless approved my the national advancement committee on a case by case basis.

[pdunbar 10]

Bob White

 

National does not make modifications on merit badges in regards to specific individuals. Your answer speaks volumes.

[pdunbar 10]

Bob White

 

P.S. Our merit badge counselors in our troop take great pride in the level of quality and completeness in regards to merit badges. Having said that, I have had the pleasure of making freinds with 2 council executives that believe that merit badge counselors do haqve to use a little common sense. It is their opinion that many merit badges that have been earned in the summer camp environment fall short of the intended completeness. In the boy in our troop, we have substituted a alternate merit badge . He may earn the hiking merit badge if I can get into shape and carry him. As I recall there are no rules forbidden this in the requirement section.

[Fat Old Guy 11]

"Having said that, I have had the pleasure of making freinds with 2 council executives that believe that merit badge counselors do haqve to use a little common sense. It is their opinion that many merit badges that have been earned in the summer camp environment fall short of the intended completeness"

 

What do the two have to do with each other? Common sense doesn't enter into the equation. Either the requirements have been met or they haven't? If it says, "Swim a mile," it doesn't mean to swim as far as you can and call it a mile.

 

 

I want to know why you are so desperate to cheat the system and give this kid a badge that he hasn't earned. Carrying him isn't hiking. Hiking is locomoting with one's own feet.

 

[Bob White 20]

"useing common sense" is not a license to altering requirements. Over the decades of scouting many scouts with physical chllenges have completed the hike merit badge requirements as they are stated while in wheelchairs crutches, and with artificial limbs.

 

Carry the scout might make you feel better but i would bet the scout would rather earn the award himself.

[Fat Old Guy 11]

Bob White said, "She was close. the BSA would strongly request that the money be used for the benefit of a youth program if not a scouting program. BUT, the money is legally the church's."

 

Ever notice that when Bobby is wrong, he never owns up but just changes the direction of discussion? It has been demonstrated with quotes from BSA documents that Bobby doesn't have a clue about money (let alone economics or accounting) but does he ever say, "Golly, I just learned something"? Nope, not our Bobo.

 

 

[pdunbar 10]

Fat Old Guy

 

I agree totally with fulfilling all requirements.

 

Bob WHite

 

Could you clarify what you mean by saying case by case. There are bo modifications done on a specific merit badge? Also, could you comment all the reply dealing with official BSA policy. I do believe it is not correct. The CO has everything. BTW Carrying the boy was not a real option, I was being fictitious.