San Diego att'y explains why city settled with ACLU

[Merlyn_LeRoy 72]

Bob White writes:

"No, it's the truth. By issuing charters to public schools, the BSA is expecting these public schools to exclude atheists. It's illegal for public schools to do this."

 

Excellent job of changing context Merlyn.

 

I'm not changing the context AT ALL. I've BEEN talking about PUBLIC SCHOOLS that charter BSA units.

 

And you ridiculous assertions that NO public school charters ANY BSA unit is absurd.

 

Have you checked EVERY BSA charter? No.

 

I've checked with the principal of the school (who says the charter partner is the school district), the superintendent of the school (who says the charter partner is the school district), and the Viking BSA council (who says the charter partner is the school district).

 

I'M not the one changing the context, YOU are. You're trying to claim that NO public school charters a BSA unit, anywhere. You're wrong.

[evmori 11]

OK Merlyn, since you threw down the gauntlet, the proof is up to you. Prove a public school owns a BSA charter?

 

Ed Mori

1 Peter 4:10

[Merlyn_LeRoy 72]

 

Sure; what would you consider sufficient proof?

[evmori 11]

A legal document that shows a public school district is the charter owner. In other words, a copy of the charter.

[Merlyn_LeRoy 72]

 

Ah, I see. I'm supposed to get a legal document that the Viking council won't send to me. Riiiight.

[NJCubScouter 1389]

I believe that there are, or have been in the past, some public schools that have been CO's themselves, not through a PTO or similar organization. My evidence is not great, but it is what it is:

 

When I was a Cub Scout and in my first Boy Scout troop (60s and very early 70s), it was my understanding that the school where we met was the "sponsoring" organization. It was probably called something other than a CO then. I know that what is now the CR was called the Institutional Representative, and the main reason I know that is that my father (sometimes as committee member and sometimes as unit leader) would occasionally give me some papers (probably relating to the charter) to take into school to give to one of the administrators (the "IR") and sometimes bring something back. I'm pretty sure this guy was not a "PTO guy," but was representing the school itself. Why I remember this 35 or so years later, I'm not sure.

 

OK, that's not so good.

 

I also remember, a couple of years ago, seeing a breakdown of BSA chartering organizations, with percentages of units (and members) chartered by each type of CO. I think it broke out the major chartering churches (LDS, Methodist, I forget who is third) and then more by types of organization, like one category covering Lions, Elks and similar groups. I remember noticing that Public Schools and PTO's were listed separately. The percentage of Public Schools was very small, but it was on the list.

[Merlyn_LeRoy 72]

 

Public schools are (or at least were) one of the largest single sponsors of BSA units:

http://www.scouter.com/archives/Scouts-L/200005/0617.asp

 

[evmori 11]

Merlyn,

So what you are saying is you have no proof except for someone saying so? Well, unless you can produce something your credibility seems to be in question.

 

Ed Mori

1 Peter 4:10

[Merlyn_LeRoy 72]

 

Let's see, "no proof" except the Viking council, the principal, and the school superintendent all saying that the school district charters it. So you're saying they're all lying for some reason?

[NJCubScouter 1389]

The BSA document reprinted in the post Merlyn cited to is the one I was talking about. It says there were 10,113 public schools that were CO's for Scout units in 1998. Parent-teacher groups are listed separately.

 

I searched the Internet for an updated edition of the same document. All I came up with were other copies (differently formatted but the same numbers) of the one from 1998.

 

http://www.three-peaks.net/scout03.htm

 

It is possible that the BSA has stopped handing out this breakdown. However, if you go on the BSA web site you will find a "Fact Sheet" that includes a list of organizations and types of organizations to which units are chartered, and they specifically list "Public Schools." They do not list PTOs/PTAs separately, so it is possible they are lumped together.

 

However, it seems unlikely that there were more than 10,000 public schools as CO's in 1998 and none today. The BSA itself holds itself out as issuing charters to "public schools." So why try to deny it? If they do, they do, and if it's unconstitutional, it's unconstitutional.

[Merlyn_LeRoy 72]

 

That's at http://www.scouting.org/factsheets/02-507.html

 

It used to have a separate section for government agencies, but I guess that got to be too blatant even for them. Now they list charterers like the US military under "community".

[evmori 11]

How is it unconstitutional for a public school to charter a BSA unit? What part of the constitution does it violate?

 

Ed Mori

1 Peter 4:10

[Merlyn_LeRoy 72]

Ed, I've told you before, I'm not going to bother trying to give you first amendment lessons.

 

Both the principal and the superintendent of the school agree that their school can't practice religious discrimination, and they agreed that if their Venture Crew can't accept atheists, that's a problem.

[Zahnada 11]

Merlyn,

 

Sorry to distract you, but I have a quick question. I know you're getting attacked from all sides, but believe me that this post stems from curiousity and not any malignant nature.

 

To put it simply, why are you here? I know your mission to end government related support to scouting. Although I don't support that mission, I do understand why you might feel strongly towards it. Your vigor and research into the matter is impressive to say the least.

 

But to understand your motives better, I personally am curious as to what your goals are on this forum. For the most part, this forum has brought people around the country (and even around the world) together out of a mutual love for scouting. The debates and heated arguments that take place here arrise from a desire to aid scouting and the boys in scouting. Even the ever popular gay debate is carried on by people who only want what they feel is best for the program. You, however, don't make any pretense of caring about the program. It is insignificant to your arguments.

 

Then what's your goal? I would venture to guess that there are no Supreme Court justices on this forum. There probably aren't an city council members who are in charge of distributing government funds. So who are you arguing against? And what are you trying to change by being here?

 

Once again, I hope this doesn't sound like an attack because it is a genuine inquiry. I want to better understand your position and goals. Thank you.

[NJCubScouter 1389]

Adrian, you wrote a post with 2 paragraphs that was apparently in response to some things that I said. The first paragraph seems to focus on this sentence:

 

How is that different from the school owning and operating scientific equipment which presumes a philosophical disposition against idealism and some Eastern religions?

 

What does that mean? What scientific equipment presumes a philosophical disposition against any religion? Are we going back to discussing the Inquisition again? As I recall Galileo had some trouble with religious folks because of his scientific equipment and the things he found with it.