Fat Old Guy 11 Posted October 7, 2003 Share Posted October 7, 2003 "I am not sure I remember history very well, but didnt Ollie North flat out lie to congress and his assitant Fawn Hall shred documents proving his perjury? Thats A great American?" Considering that Congress lies to America on a regular basis is it so bad that someone would lie to them? What about all the intelligence types that break the laws of other countries on a regular basis? Are they great Americans? What about the special ops types that violate the borders of countries that we are not at war with which is violation of many, many, laws (but is considered legal because the President waved his pen)? Are they great Americans? Honest Abe took this country into a bloody war to preserve his image of America. Was he a great American? Clinton lied on the stand but many consider him a great American. Link to post Share on other sites
Mike F 10 Posted October 7, 2003 Share Posted October 7, 2003 My two Scouts used to cringe at the BSA stickers on the back of my van -- especially when I was picking them up at school in front of their friends. Then one day I explained to them that Boy Scouts represented some of the finest of America's ideals. Those stickers are my way of publicly saying I share some ideals that won't be swayed by the changing winds of political correctness. No more problems with the van stickers and the boys have recently been "caught" wearing Boy Scout t-shirts to school. The little radicals!! Link to post Share on other sites
KoreaScouter 13 Posted October 7, 2003 Share Posted October 7, 2003 SR540Beaver: I'm still scratching my head over whether or not that was appropriate as a fund raiser. I'd be reluctant to apply my values or what type of activity would be well-received as a fund-raiser here with the values of N. Georgia. I gotta give the organizers credit, though, for even putting together such a high-profile event. Hindsight's 20/20 of course, but if it were me, I would have gone after a former Marine who's a much better role model and example for young people. His name is Clebe McClary, and he lives in South Carolina. He's now a motivational speaker, but was severely wounded and close to death in Vietnam. He's lost sight in one eye, a leg, and most of an arm. But, to hear him speak about his service, his faith, his country, and his family, it'll move you like nobody else I've heard. KS Link to post Share on other sites
OldGreyEagle 5 Posted October 7, 2003 Share Posted October 7, 2003 FOG, Ollie North raised his right hand and swore to tell the truth and did not. He did this on TV to the Congress and to the American public. This is actually exactly what Clinton did. Although Clinton is still rated much worse in my mind than North, but North still lied. Both disgraced themselves. I am not sure if I can hit all your points, Lincoln did what he had to to preserve the Union. As far as he other points you have, I have no problem with a Special Ops soldier doing what needs to be done, to intelligience officers doing what they need to do. I do question if what was going on in the basement of the White HOuse is on the level of waging the Civil War. And as far as making it ok to lie to Congress since "they" lie to use, well I dont know what to say. But if I personally followed the examples of our political leaders I certainly wouldnt be able to say the scout oath and law with any veracity. AT this point Ralph Nader is looking better and better, Pounder, You need to do a better job that dismissing OT's thought on LNT as providing a clean place to put expensive gear. Here's a thought, how about Boy Scouts being apolitical, and only advancing "Our" agenda?(This message has been edited by OldGreyEagle) Link to post Share on other sites
Fat Old Guy 11 Posted October 7, 2003 Share Posted October 7, 2003 " Lincoln did what he had to to preserve the Union." So preserving the Union was more important the the thousand of lives that were ended? "As far as he other points you have, I have no problem with a Special Ops soldier doing what needs to be done, to intelligience officers doing what they need to do." Why? They are breaking numerous laws. Do the ends justify the means? Link to post Share on other sites
LovetoCamp 9 Posted October 7, 2003 Share Posted October 7, 2003 It's been my experience that it's OK for the left wing politically correct types to have free reign spewing, but when someone replies with a view from the other side, the left wing becomes mean and nasty, and the result is nothing but hacked off people on both sides and the forum deteriorates. So y'all can bash each other until your black and blue, I'm going backpacking and shooting, see ya down range. Link to post Share on other sites
SR540Beaver 116 Posted October 7, 2003 Share Posted October 7, 2003 Trail Pounder said, "Those speakers aren't running for any office or stumping for any candidates, where does partisan politics come into this? It doesn't." Actually, if you watch any Fox news, you will realize that both Coulter and North are VERY partisan pundits. No, they are not candidates running for any office, but they most definitely push a certain political agenda and strongly oppose the other side. I agree with KS about the Marine veteran disabled in VietNam. There are many people out there who can provide patriotic inspiration to young people without bringing politics into it. Patriotism is a love of country that can transcend political leanings, not love of a particular political agenda. People like North, Coulter or Franken can not seem to seperate the two in their minds. The comment was made about how conservative that part of Georgia was as a pretext to why they might have a rally of this sort. Stop and think on this. Would you find it appropriate for your scouts at summer camp to come home and tell you that the religious service at camp was done by a hellfire and brimstome preacher who held an invitation for salvation at the end? 90% of the boys there might have been from Christian churches, but the other 10% were not. And even of the 90% who are Christian, a large majority may not prescribe to that particular type of doctrine. BSA is supposed to be non-sectarian and non-partisan. This council showed poor judgement in their speaker selection. Link to post Share on other sites
acco40 95 Posted October 7, 2003 Share Posted October 7, 2003 Amen brother. I'd like to suggest a fundraiser complete with snake handlers. Link to post Share on other sites
MarkNoel 10 Posted October 7, 2003 Author Share Posted October 7, 2003 TrailPounder writes: > Those speakers aren't running for any office or stumping for any candidates, where > does partisan politics come into this? I think it's pretty clear where it came in, when one of the speakers (Ann Coulter) addresses the group with the following: "The cowards and quislings of the Democratic Party have been exposed as the Neville Chamberlain of their day," Coulter said, setting the tone with her discussion of Iraq. "That will be the historic legacy of the Democratic Party." Speaking as a former Atlanta native and camp staffer for the Atlanta Area Council, I agree that that region leans Republican. But I still don't see that as an excuse for hosting an event that clearly demonizes at least a third of the local population, if not more. And if the BSA thought it had problems in court right now with its classification as a "religious organization," imagine what a few more cases like this is going to do to its legal classification (not to mention its public reputation)... YiS, -Mark Link to post Share on other sites
Bob White 20 Posted October 7, 2003 Share Posted October 7, 2003 In an effort to be fair and accurate, Ms. Coulter did not denigrate the entire Democratic party, only the cowards and quizzlings residing in it. To be sure there are some of them in every political party. I would think it would be hard not to denigrate cowards and quizzlings wherever you might find them. The fact that the BSA allowed Ann to speak does not establish support for her but only for her right to her opinion. Those present were free to disagree were they not? I'm sure none were told that they must choose an anni-Democratic stand in order to retain membership in the BSA. So Mark if you argument is that the BSA allowed a person to express thier opinion in order for a free thinking audience to make their own decisions without forcing them to choose to follow or support a single political ideology, then I have to say your right and welcome to America. Bob White Bob White Link to post Share on other sites
cjmiam 10 Posted October 7, 2003 Share Posted October 7, 2003 Bob, Very well said. When I see Scouts getting booed at the DNC, one has to wonder where their party has sunk. Just the mere fact that the BSA promotes traditional family values goes against numerous liberal organizations. Conservatives have tolerance for inequality. We call it individualism, but it is at great odds with the tenants of Socialism that the liberals hold so dear. Conservatives also have a resistance to changes that affect our constitutionally guaranteed freedoms. However, this too goes against the lefts socialist agenda. The BSA as an institution has these principles founded in its ideology. The BSA has spent millions of dollars defending its constitutionally guaranteed rights. Is it conservatives that are suing the BSA? I think not. And what organizations support the DNC? Sure enough, overwhelmingly the same ones that dont support the BSA or in some cases sue us. Scouting teaches personal responsibility Liberals teach government dependence Scouting teaches personal integrity Liberals teach moral relativism Scouting teaches respecting others views Liberals demand others change their views or else try to silence them Scouting teaches a duty to God Liberals want God removed from our lives Scouting teaches a duty to country Liberals believe our country is suppose to serve us Scouting teaches a duty to self Liberals believe others are to blame for personal failures Scouting teaches standing up for what is right Liberals will only stand up for what supports their political agenda Scouting teaches conserving our natural resources Liberals use these resources for personal gain and political agenda through disseminating misinformation like global warming. I hope none you Scouters out there are driving SUVs! Link to post Share on other sites
OldGreyEagle 5 Posted October 8, 2003 Share Posted October 8, 2003 Fog, forgive me, I am in a fog, what are we arguing about again, I agree with your last post, and I thought we were at odds, help me out Link to post Share on other sites
Bob White 20 Posted October 8, 2003 Share Posted October 8, 2003 So Fog are you saying that the end doesn't justify the means? Or just not in this situation? BW Link to post Share on other sites
packsaddle 753 Posted October 8, 2003 Share Posted October 8, 2003 Fat Old Guy, whether I am addressing the brass with bad news but especially if a boy is posing some situational question, I always maintain that lies are wrong. Period. MarkNoel, you made a comment about BSA being classified as a "religious organization". Could you elaborate on that? Link to post Share on other sites
Twocubdad 665 Posted October 8, 2003 Share Posted October 8, 2003 Oh, Pu-leeeze! What a load. So what's your point, cj, is that Scouting IS, in fact, a right-wing political organizations? Since we "liberals" are so out of step with the principles of Scouting that we should all be drummed out of the program? Why not drop the facade and let uniformed Scouts openly campaign for good, conservative, heterosexual, Christian Republican candidates. What the heck, everyone knows all Democrats are of low moral character. How conceited does one have to be to think that only those who share their political and religious point of view can demonstrate responsibility, integrity, respect, duty to God and country, etc. (This message has been edited by Twocubdad) Link to post Share on other sites
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