le Voyageur 72 Posted January 20, 2003 Share Posted January 20, 2003 be considered a hate crime since it may be incubating the foundation for homophobia and intolerance in our most impressionable members? http://www.rtis.com/touchstone/feb02/17.htm Link to post Share on other sites
littlebillie 10 Posted January 20, 2003 Share Posted January 20, 2003 this from one of the gay-friendly contributors here... NO. Not if it's handled correctly. Scouting, ideally, is sexless. It's not gay - but it's not about promoting straight, specifically, either. There are single volunteers and single professionals. IF WE GO BY POLICY, that entire aspect of their lives is a black box. The boys should know nothing about this either way. So at the worst - ideally - the offical stance should promote ignorance... and confusion. Link to post Share on other sites
mk9750 11 Posted January 20, 2003 Share Posted January 20, 2003 I get quite a bit frustrated reading the debates over this issue. Many people feel that homosexuality is acceptable, many others feel it is not. I am in the camp of the latter. However, I respect, and DEFEND the rights of the others to believe as they see fit. They may certainly utilize their rights and speak about it and promote it. They may utilize other rights and associate freely with others who are of like mind, and they may exclude those whose beliefs are not consistent with their own. They can even start an organization that has the same activities, advancement themes, etc., as Boy Scouts, but are accepting of homosexuality. But I fail to see where anyone has the right to try to force a person, or a group of people, into accepting something which they abhor. It is just as wrong for people to try to do so as it is for me to join someone else's group and try to force them to change their core beliefs. As a young adult, I remember struggling with the Catholic Church's position on contraception. My parents were very clear: If you decide you want to belong to any group, you agree to accept all of the rules of that group. You are free not to like them, but you agree to follow them. I may be of the opinion that homosexuality is wrong, but I also believe in some else's right to believe otherwise. One of the things that draws me to Boy Scouts is it's position on this issue. I wish people would discontinue asking it to change. To think that this would be the last word on the topic would be ridiculous of me. However, I wish someone could phrase it so that everyone would get it. Mark Link to post Share on other sites
evmori 11 Posted January 20, 2003 Share Posted January 20, 2003 I see nothing wrong with the BSA's stance on gays. It the link, there is a statement "Most significantly, it is problematic to treat the Bible as if its writers were not affected by the limitations imposed on them by their position within a very specific cultural and historical context." The only limitations placed on the Bible ore those place by God. Ed Mori Scoutmaster Troop 1 1 Peter 4:10 Link to post Share on other sites
littlebillie 10 Posted January 20, 2003 Share Posted January 20, 2003 Ed, perhaps more importantly, the BSA should NOT and does not limit its religious frame of reference to the Bible. The Talmud and the Quoran, as well as Buddhist, Hindu, Zoroastrian and other teachings - these are all acceptable to the BSA. Even different Christian faiths see different things in the Bible. IT IS NOT THE PROVENCE OF SCOUTING TO CHOOSE ANY ONE FAITH ABOVE ANY OTHERS. Or to single out any religion for special treatment, postive or negative. The UUA comes to mind... Link to post Share on other sites
le Voyageur 72 Posted January 20, 2003 Author Share Posted January 20, 2003 littlebillie how you err, BSA promotes the Christian faith at the expense of the others since the majority of it's members are of that faith. BSA simply kow tows to the majority... by the way, a little mudslinging on your part..if you must know, I'm actually nuetral on this isssue as I've not formed an opinion one way or the other. Unlike most, I like to explore the issues in order to educate myself and be better informed. In the future try to be more civil. If you can't then don't opine..... Link to post Share on other sites
littlebillie 10 Posted January 20, 2003 Share Posted January 20, 2003 lV - mudslinging? how so? that's a serious question - what mud got slung? - please visit http://www.usscouts.org/advance/boyscout/religious.html to see support for my comments. Scroll down and see how UUA is mentioned, and note as you do so all the religions represented. I rather think it mudslinging to describe the theoretically neutral and diverse religious Scouting stance as kow-towing... but that's just me. Perhaps you're right, but I hope not. "In the future try to be more civil. If you can't then don't opine..... " hmmm - so much for freedom of speech AND religion, eh? Link to post Share on other sites
le Voyageur 72 Posted January 20, 2003 Author Share Posted January 20, 2003 Since you used the term "gay friendly" should I consider that a compliment....your homophobic rhectoric was a cheap shot.... Link to post Share on other sites
Rooster7 11 Posted January 20, 2003 Share Posted January 20, 2003 BSA simply kow tows to the majority... Even IF it were true, the BSA has a right as a private organization to "kow-tow" to whomever they wish. Having said this, I believe your perception of the BSA and Constitutional protections is incorrect. The BSA tries to be as inclusive as possible without sacrificing the values that they have embraced. You may argue that many, most, or even all of their values align with Judeo-Christian values. Regardless, this is not illegal or even unethical. The BSA, while it tries to include as many as possible, is not the United States government. They have no obligation to write policies which give the appearance that they do not endorse one value system over another. In fact, I would argue that the United States government doesnt even have that Constitutional obligation. The United States federal government must monitor itself and the states so that they do not establish a national religion. They have an obligation to protect the rights of private organizations, most especially religions, so that they may serve and associate with whomever they please. In short, if anyone is being anti-American and/or anti-freedom, its those folks and their supporters who would force their will on private organizations such as the BSA. Once the BSA is compromised, the next stop will be your local church. Link to post Share on other sites
Quixote 10 Posted January 20, 2003 Share Posted January 20, 2003 LV - please note that labeling one "homophobic" is just as muddy as you accuse others of. Pot, meet kettle. yes, i know "he threw at me first". Link to post Share on other sites
littlebillie 10 Posted January 20, 2003 Share Posted January 20, 2003 homophobic? moi? very amusing. please go back and check my post history. I have long supported a gay presence in Scouting, I'm a member of S4A, and I regularly get sniped for being pro-pink. YOUR question addressed Scouting's policy as a hate crime. I consider it (the policy) short-sighted and unfair, and I speak constantly in support of change thereof - but I do not consider it a 'hate crime'. (My first response). Scouting's policy is mostly that sex ed of any kind it not part of the program - that belongs in the home, gay OR straight. That's its official stance. I was emphasizing that. And if Scouting lives up to its ideals, even in and especially in this regard, then the kids should NOT be made aware of the politics or the position, not directly, and not explicitly. Sure, they may pick it up from the news, but again - it's not Scouting's position that they should actively disparage and decry the lifestyle. Me, I'm in favor of mature, relation-committed gays as Scout leaders, and gay kids as Scouts. Perhaps the problem is the use of the words 'hate crime' in this regard... Link to post Share on other sites
Bob White 20 Posted January 20, 2003 Share Posted January 20, 2003 Where does The BSA bad mouth homosexuals? I have seen far too many instances of adult volunteers denigrating individuals due to their sexuality, but not the BSA. Just because they say that a group does not meet membership qualifications does not mean that the BSA is against that group. Scouts are not taught to hate girls below the age of 14 because they can't be scouts. Are Scouts taught to hate boys in Kindergarten because they can't be scouts? Look at other organizations. The marines recently rejected a fine young man, an Eagle scout and honor student for having a mild case of Asthma. Do the Marines teach hatred for Asthma sufferers. of course not. They have a mission to fulfill and they know what characteristics best support that mission. Scouting does not teach hate toward any group in our society. The BSA sets membership requirements based on the mission of their program, but they have never taught hate. Some individual volunteers do and they are wrong to do so. But as you know we have a few volunteers doing things wrong all the time. We can tell them how to do the program and they don't. We tell them how not to do the program and they do. That's just something you have to accept will happen to some degree when working with volunteers from every walk of life. It is unfortunate, and often embarrassing, but it is not the Scouting program that is flawed it is the individual's heart. BW Link to post Share on other sites
littlebillie 10 Posted January 20, 2003 Share Posted January 20, 2003 Bob White, exactly what I meant when I said "it's not Scouting's position that they should actively disparage and decry the lifestyle." Scouting does not do this. They exclude, yes - and I hope that will change. But to date, I haven't heard ANY official homo-hate speech. I doubt that I will. It's not their position to promote marriage either - or swinging singlehood! Scouting's OFFICIAL position may be characterized as one of respectful exclusion. I object to the exclusion. And I speak out against it. But really, my desire is that the BSA be PERSUADED to reaccess its position, rather than forced to change it. I wonder - should a genetic link ever be shown - if Scouting has a policy in place to be announced to address something like that??? Link to post Share on other sites
Bob White 20 Posted January 20, 2003 Share Posted January 20, 2003 littlebillie, I'm not sure why the discovery of a genetic link would alter the membership policy. I'm pretty sure that being female has been proven to be genetically linked but I do not know of any plan to change the membership guidelines for cub Scouts or Boy Scouts because of that. Bob White Link to post Share on other sites
RobK 10 Posted January 20, 2003 Share Posted January 20, 2003 Quoting from the referenced article: There are several problems, however, with employing 2000 year old religious texts to criticize what we now know about sexual orientation and gender identity/expression. Most significantly, it is problematic to treat the Bible as if its writers were not affected by the limitations imposed on them by their position within a very specific cultural and historical context. Using their definition of hate speech, this sounds like anti-religous hate speech to me. Telling me that I shouldn't call homosexuality sin and avoid it's adherents and promoters is no different than a Christian saying "What you're doing is sin, you should stop." It's a moral judgement based on personally held moral beliefs. Homosexuals et al. often ask "What right do you have to tell me that I'm wrong?" I'll turn the question around. What right do they have to tell us that we're wrong? Who gave them the authority to tell us that homosexuality isn't wrong and that we have to accept it? If expressing the belief that homosexuality is immoral is a hate crime, then how is it any less a hate crime to say that it's immoral to believe homosexuality is immoral? The very idea of "hate crime" is disgusting though. Is it less evil for a mugger to murder a homosexual simply to get his wallet than for someone to murder a homosexual because he's a homosexual? Would there be hate crime charges if I was murdered because my killer hates right-wing Christian gun owners and thinks they all ought to die? Would it be any less of a "hate crime"? Regarding using 2000 year old texts, Sun Tzu's The Art of War is older than that, and no one denies the universal truths in it. BTW, Bob White, glad to hear from you again... Link to post Share on other sites
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