Adults Smoking at Scout Events

[Twocubdad 665]

I choose to read, "may not allow" to mean "is prohibited" and enforce that as the policy of our unit. Unfortunately, I also acknowledge that the policy is written in such a way the it can be interpreted differently if one were so inclined.

 

My question is this: Why hasn't BSA clarified the policy? This debate has been going on through at least four updates of the printed G2SS that I'm aware of. It's been debated here ad nauseaum and I've heard it questioned a number of times among real, live Scouters. At some point one has to question whether or not the obfuscation is intentional.

[Bob White 20]

It's strange twocub, because my experience has been just the opposite. I have trained hundreds of adults in youth protection and we review this policy and no one has ever raised any confusion over the meaniong of this policy. Ever!

Except for a few posters on this forum.

 

I invite you to read this phrase to an engish teacher at any grade level and ask them for its meaning. I'm confident they will tell you that the adult leaders are not to allow anyone to use tobacco in front of the youth at a scout activity.

 

I really believe there are three groups who oppose the wording. Some like yourself who support the rule but disagree with the sentence structure, and others who lack the personal principles to tell others not to smoke in front of the boys and either want the written word to do the work for them to avoid confrontation OR leaders that have no intention of supporting the policy and are using what they see as loopp hole to allow them to ignore the welfare of the scouts and put their own habits first.

 

Whether or not you like the wording, or whether or not the wording is changed, the important thing is that you accept its purpose and that you do not allow tobacco use in view of the scouts, and as a parent I appreciate that.

 

Bob White

[evmori 11]

packsaddle,

I agree that the wording is again vague but the statement "No street or pavement skating is authorized without helmets." eliminates the vagueness. If the BSA had said "No smoking at events were youth are present." then the same result would be achieved.

 

Bob,

I have discussed this with the paid professionals in my district & council & we are all in agreement. None of us endorse smoking in the presence of youth but the wording of the policy in the G2SS doesn't prohibit it, either.

 

Ed Mori

[Bob White 20]

Aeveryone has a right to be wrong sometimes including local scouting profressionals.

 

The most important question is Ed, will YOU allow anyone at a scouting activity to use tobacco in view of the youth?

 

Bob White

[evmori 11]

Forgot - the mighty Bob White is never wrong!

 

I have discussed this with my daughter's high school English teacher. She says (and this isn't an exact quote as I didn't take notes)the phrase "may not allow" doesn't mean prohibit. It means you may not but you also may.

 

Bob,

What does your council, district & local English professional have to say about this?

 

And as for your question, please read my previous post for your answer.

 

Ed Mori

[Bob White 20]

First off Ed your mighty Bob White comment was uncalled for. no one attacked you personally.

 

Secondly your previous post never addresses what you would do. So I will ask again. Other posters have said that altthough they would like the wording to be different that they will not allow the use of tobacco in view of the scouts because they nderstand the purpose as explained in the YP training video and on-line.

 

So Ed, will YOU allow anyone at a scouting activity to use tobacco in view of the youth?

 

It's just a yes or no answer.

 

Bob White

[evmori 11]

No personal attack. Just what I gleaned from your comment.

 

I did answer your question in a previous post. But to be polite, I will answer again. NO. Now if a Scout wanders into the designated smoking area I would not ask everyone there to stop smoking. They are where they are supposed to be. The Scout should be asked to leave.

 

Ed Mori

[evmori 11]

Bob,

I have answered your question twice. How about answering mine? Or are you are just going to let this die again since you didn't get your way?

 

Ed Mori

[Bob White 20]

"Or are you are just going to let this die again since you didn't get your way?"

 

Again with the personal attacks Ed. I'm sorry you still find that necessary.

 

"What does your council, district & local English professional have to say about this?"

 

I have served in 4 councils and 4 districts. Each understood the rule as being that members are not to use drugs, alcohol or tobacco on scout activities. That tobacco is only to be use in restricited areas out of view of the youth, and that leaders are charged with keeping others from using tobacco in front of the youth.

 

I showed this to a newspaper editor, who said that although there are other ways to say it, he undersood to passage to mean that leaders cannot allow others to use tobacco in view of the scouts.

 

I hope that answers your question,

Bob White

[evmori 11]

Bob,

No personal attacks. Just an observation as to the way you handle some conflicts on this forum.

 

"Each understood the rule as being that members are not to use drugs, alcohol or tobacco on scout activities. That tobacco is only to be use in restricited areas out of view of the youth, and that leaders are charged with keeping others from using tobacco in front of the youth."

 

OK which is it? Not to use or out of view of? You statement is contradictory?

 

Ed Mori

 

[Bob White 20]

Ed,

 

Along with several other posters I got fed up with the banter being shared by some of the posters on this forum. You and I were two of them. Now I am trying very hard to mainain a calmer voice when dealing with you. You could assist in maintaining the decorum of the conversation by refraining from these backhanded comments of yours.

 

"Each understood the rule as being that members are not to use drugs, alcohol or tobacco on scout activities. That tobacco is only to be use in restricited areas out of view of the youth, and that leaders are charged with keeping others from using tobacco in front of the youth."

 

OK which is it? Not to use or out of view of? You statement is contradictory?"

 

The Guide to Safe Scouting Ed says both.

first it says "The Boy Scouts of America prohibits the use of alcoholic beverages and controlled substances at encampments or activities on property owned and/or operated by the Boy Scouts of America, or at any activity involving participation of youth members"

 

Then it says in bold letters that scout leaders "may not allow the use of tobacco products at any BSA activity involving youth participants."

 

Now ed, you know what the bold lettering mean. That is is an unalterable policy. If the BSA neant that you could allow tobacco if you wanted to, then there would be no point in making it bold. Isn't that right?

 

Now I have no intention of changing your mind or expecting you to do anything differently. My only concern is that other readers understand the and follow the intents and policies of the BSA program.

 

If you choose not to uphold this policy that is your choice, if you want to pretend you don't understand it so that you will not have to inforce it, then that is your choice. Your local council can deal with that if needed.

 

If you choose to do what is in the best interest of the scouts, even if you think the rule could be worded better, that would be great.

 

In any case there is little point for you to address me directly on this.

 

Bob White(This message has been edited by Bob White)

[evmori 11]

Once again Bob, the question I asked was not answered. I know what the G2SS says. I know what the bold print means. And by the way, according to the G2SS, bold type denotes BSA rules & policies. Nothing says these are unalterable. Posting it isn't an answer to my question.

 

I always do what is best for the Scouts.

 

Do you want people to follw BSA policy or your interpertation of that policy? In some cases, there is a difference!

 

My unit upholds this policy & we understand it very well. We have never had the occasion to have to enforce it that I can think of.

 

Ed Mori

 

 

 

[Bob White 20]

What I want is of no importance, other than as a trainer I want leaders to follow the BSA program. The BSA wants you to follow the policies they have set. If you don't understand them, they want you to err on the side of the the values of the scouting program.

 

The question I answered was the only one that appeared in your "previous post" if there was another question you had, please restate it politely and I will respond.

 

Bob White(This message has been edited by Bob White)

[Fat Old Guy 11]

"I have discussed this with my daughter's high school English teacher."

 

Considering the current state of public education, I'd be hesitant to use her as an authority. The memos that come home from school are some of the most poorly written documents that I've ever read.

 

In a previous life I made money as a writer. I also managed to accumulate 30 credits in writing on my way to a B.S. I can't tell a nominative bi-valve from a dangling ruminant (apologies to Dave Berry) but I can write or so I was told by my editors. What's all that mean? It means that I think that I'm right. :-)

 

 

[evmori 11]

Bob,

You posted

 

"Each understood the rule as being that members are not to use drugs, alcohol or tobacco on scout activities. That tobacco is only to be use in restricited areas out of view of the youth, and that leaders are charged with keeping others from using tobacco in front of the youth."

 

And I asked

 

"OK which is it? Not to use or out of view of? You statement is contradictory?"

 

You answered with the text from the G2SS. You didn't answer the question!

 

Fat Old Guy,

Yeah I know in some school districts the state of education is in the dumper. However, the school district my daughter is in is one of the top ones in the country and the teachers (for the most part) are excellent! That being said, I think her English teacher would be a good source.

 

Ed Mori