Meaningful Training vs Checking Boxes

[CricketEagle 15]

Introduction to Outdoor Leadership Skills Versus Wilderness First Aid:

 

Please read my whole posting: I am hoping that I can receive some thoughtful, clear responses. There was a very similar posting recently.

 

I am more concerned with the effect on re-chartering and meaningful training.

 

In looking over the newer Scoutmaster requirements, I am seeing some councils requiring the Intro to Outdoor Leadership skills class. I also had seen a few that even appear to go so far to say that you may not be allowed to re-charter without this.

 

My time is valuable. I can clearly understand a rational requirement for something like Wilderness First Aid. (Nope, that is not required, YET, but I believe that would be a meaningful requirement).

 

I am a pro-training person. Especially so when there are clear safety issues at heart. I do this all the time in my paying job.

 

But this one I am having a hard time swallowing. I even went to our district and asked if there was a Test-Out option as a few councils in our state allow. I was bluntly told no and that our council would not allow that. Not sure if that was someones personal opinion, or a real council policy as our district is known to be quirky.

 

As I reviewed my Guide to Safe Scouting, and the new Local and National Tour Plans, I see not mention of this being an official requirement.

 

I have a sneaking feeling I am being put on the path to chase a Trained patch, not something that would be helpful to our troop and the boys. Yes, I do have all the other required training plus a bunch more.

 

Any body out there having similar experiences? Or that can shed some light on this?

 

Making an old Eagle and former Army NCO demonstrate square knots, start fires and disinfect water does not pass the smell test. Especially when I am asked to spend 2 days doing it. I really feel like I am dealing with bureaucrats who just want to check off a box, not improve a program.

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

[Jay K 15]

I'm not sure that I can answer this objectively.

I went to then-called OLS becuse I was told the it was part of the Scoutmaster training continuum. None of it was particularly new to me, but there were some nuances, and I really appreciated it. I took the first day May 1st, 2004, and the second day, April 30th, 2005. Two days, home by dinnertime. Not a big deal, if you ask me.

I have become an IOLS trainer. I have trained some guys mornings during a week at Scout Camp, and I did some on a four day canoe camping trip where we did about 2.5 hour/day. Since we were camping, and filtering Lake water, and navigating by map and compass, and actually cooking on fire, I did just check some of the boxes. If your District is "Quirky," take it at another District, or another Council. I have the book (syllabus)"Introduction to Outdoor Leader Skills." I bought it at the Scout Shop. It does proclaim two tracks: An actual class., or

"This course also presents the opportunity to implement a mentor program using more experienced trainers to work one-on-one with new leaders at a time that may be more convenient for them, teaching one skills session at a time if necessary..." (page 6, "Scheduling the Course.)

When I was training my Troop Committee chair, I checked a lot of things off, because I had camped with him and our Scouts dozens of times, And I had seen him do those things with Scouts. I hope that you can track down some options upon getting this information. Send me a personal message if you like.

Jay

[fred8033 1591]

Alot of BSA training is essentially checking off the boxes. Heck, I just did COR training this weekend after being the COR for five years so that I can get a "Y" on the unit training report. Specifically, I didn't learn a darn thing, but then again I could probably have taught the course. Generally though, it made me think a bit about the COR role and our CO in general.

 

The usefulness in the training is rarely the skills or specifics that are taught. Those can easily be picked up. It's the scouting attitude and how to work with the kids that's important. It's the associations and connections. You mentioned you were an Eagle scout and an NCO. So you've got the skills. You also have the knowledge of the program from a youth and a military standpoint. But, an adult leader role is different than being a youth and very very different than the military. People often say it's hard for a Cub Scout den leader to transition to a Boy Scout leader. I think it's just as difficult for a military leader to transition to Boy Scouts. (i.e. letting go of control, being a friendly coach, rarely stepping in, letting mistakes happen, ...).

 

As for IOLS, I did get some out of it. Medical issues. Epi-pens. Compass game. But that's about it. The rest of my learning was more general philosophy approach.

 

So yeah, alot of BSA training is essentially checking off boxes. But you can still get alot out of it.

 

[Eagle92 110]

IOLS is not mandatory YET, but it's coming. Councils can require it, especially if you are in one of the pilot councils for mandatory training for all leaders.

 

In regards to IOLS test out options, my advice is to go to a council source about the test out option as it is the last edition of the Training committee book, whatever it is called. Some folks do have the KSAs to test out of the course. However councils can require you to take the class.

 

If they do, see if you can do what my 3 beader friend did to get IOLS trained: help teach the class. My 3 beader friend went to WB as a CM, and when he became a ASM and crew adviser, he was "untrained" b/c he never did IOLS. This despite being a MBC for camping, backpacking, etc MBs. He never had time to take the class because he was busy with the troop, crew, OA, and WB staff. Finally he get's asked to teach the course, and does it. This was before mention of the test out option was known.

 

As for the rationale behind it, I hate to say it but I am seeing more and more folks with little to no outdoor skills becoming leaders. IMHO this is a major problem. Adults need to have the basic scouting abilities down pat to not only set the example, but also to help the older scouts teach those skills IF needed to. Also if things hit the fan, adults need to be able to help out the Scouts as equals, not being hindrance to the scouts.

 

[CricketEagle 15]

 

Fred, I don't want this discussion to become comments on skill training versus training in the "patrol method". I am all for the patrol method as long as the adults provided proper coaching to the youths. We all could go on and on on that topic.

 

Eagle92's answer I fully understand seeing many other adults. However, not allowing some sort of test out is like teaching to the "lowest" common denominator. That is a good way to burn out adults.

 

JayK's answer was more of what I was hoping to see. Some training sources quoted. Anymore out there with similar info?

 

[fred8033 1591]

Sorry about that. The simple answer is that I've never seen an obviously qualified person waived from required BSA training. Perhaps the Red Cross would just give a doctor credit for Wilderness First Aid. Not sure. I've just seen no provision in BSA or our counsel for doing that. And, I've asked.

 

I have seen credit given for a new required course when a person took the earlier course. A local SM became SM in 1990 and took training in the 1980s / 1990s. One of his courses was replaced with IOLS. So the counsel gave him credit for IOLS training as he took the other course already. That's the only type of exception I've seen.

[Eagle92 110]

In trying to look up a source from national about test outs, I found something else and spun off.

 

But this is what national has written

 

There is also discussion about a test out or opt out option for leaders.

 

There are some concerns about the potential safety issues that come with lesser training, the lack of a connection to other Scouters, the importance of the patrol method, etc. On the other side there are those that say this can be very effective, or that some training is better than none.

 

We are working on a formal, mentored, test-out option for districts and councils training teams to use, and we are monitoring councils that are already doing the test-out.

 

There will be no opt out option. There are too many Eagle Scouts from troops with poor leadership who may have 21 merit badges, done a great service project, and are leaders, but have bad outdoor skills because their Scoutmaster does. There are also too many experienced outdoorsmen who know how to survive in the outdoors, but do not know the outdoor practices of the BSA or how to work with 12 year olds in the outdoors.

 

At this time, we prefer that Scoutmasters and assistants attend a full Introduction to Outdoor Leader Skills course, but we know that that is not always possible. We also know that a mentored test-out has value and is much better than a totally untrained leader. So, here is an update of what was written on the subject last year:

 

In addition to other prescribed training, Scoutmasters and assistants should attend an Introduction to Outdoor Leader Skills course to be considered trained. However, if a course is not available, tenured Scouters that can demonstrate all the basic outdoor camping skills for the Tenderfoot, Second Class, and First Class ranks may not need to take the full course. They should contact their district training chair and schedule a one-on-one mentoring session with a member of the training team.

 

Many tenured leaders probably own the skills and should be able to adequately explain how to demonstrate each one to a member of the training team. The training team mentor should coach the individual through areas where additional help might be needed. Upon completion, the training team member should report the completion of training to the council office.

 

http://scouting.org/training/trainingupdates.aspx

[CricketEagle 15]

Fred, no offense taken.

 

I live in a council and district that has a little reputation of adding there own "special" twists on national rules.

 

That is why I am hoping someone could quote the sources.

 

As far as I see, there is nothing from National about this effecting rechartering. That was my more urgent concern. Has anyone seen anything like this?

 

Again I am pro-training. I do it all the time for work. Many times I have to repeat the same training 3 and 4 + times a year as I enter different client's facilities. But I will be the first first to tell you you can only drink so much coffee and stay awake while the latest safety guy tells you how to climb a ladder. HOWEVER, at least in that case I get paid to sit around.

 

Another Eagle I know recently took the course. His comments were that it was OK, but the only good knowledge he came back with was how work a new stove. I am sure there is more to it. But he said the course was focus on basic scout skills (not patrol methods etc).

 

I will get around to this eventually, but when I have time. I still value the Wilderness First Aid higher over IOLS.

 

 

[CricketEagle 15]

Eagle92,

 

Thanks, That was good information.

 

It looks as if a formal "TEST-out" option is in the works. It at least is a reasonable solution.

 

 

[Eagle92 110]

CE,

 

Test out is written in the current book, and there is a thread on it somewhere. Looks as if national will be formalizing the process.

[Jay K 15]

The main thing I saw was, they want to get everybody on the same page. Example: We all had knives. "Okay, start sharpening your knives. " We set to it. "Now we will show you the way Boy Scouts wants it done." Away and down, no back stroke, no circular motion. So, That's the way I teach it, away and down.

 

At Camp school, they asked me to throw a rope. I threw it. Then they told the whole class that I did it wrong,(it was special!) and then showed us the "Boy Scout " way to throw it.

 

So, you might have a great, even better way to do something, but "they" want you to know the "Boy Scout" way to do it.

 

Also, they showed us some good ways to teach some of the things. My advice: Just do it.

[Eagle92 110]

JK,

 

Your story reminds me of a FA MB class I sat in on way back when. The cardiologist teaching CPR was not teaching what ARC and AHA was teaching at the time, rather he was saying do compressions hard and fast and 30 compressions then 2 breaths.

 

20+ years later....

[Basementdweller 608]

Well Cricket......just curious what makes you so special that you don't have to do the training or get your boxes checked off?????

 

Lots of eagles on this board and I bet most of us have completed IOLS......I have taken wilderness first aid over two weekends, my IOLS course was a combined course over three weekends. It had everything from YPT thru IOLS. The complete training course over 5 days and two nights.

 

Our council did a test out weekend for 19 year old new scouters....the intent is for boy scouts aging out to demonstrate the skills and testing out. Well lets say it didn't go as well as they hoped.

 

Mandatory training and testing keeps macho dad from going out and getting a bunch of scouts killed.

 

We have all met the know it all scout dad, had a cub dad try to build a fire for nearly an hour a month ago. He had been spouting off about all of his outdoor adventures and experiences at the Popcorn sale. So I was playing kickball with the boys and checking out what was going on...... Haven't heard any stories since.

 

I still believe that the BSA should have much more in depth or thorough outdoor training for the adults. Most city folks are not skilled enough for anything more than plop camping.

 

They should have a Introduction to backpacking, Introduction to back country camping course. Introduction to water craft safety.......

 

 

Sadly many Eagles, actual or pretend, just don't have the skills they should from an active scouting career. No way of knowing which is which.

[Eagle92 110]

Base,

 

No disrespect 'cause I've seen some of the eagles and leaders you are talking about. But there are folks who know outdoor skills and could test out of IOLS. I wish the test out option was available back when it was SM Fundamentals. And I wish BALOO had a test out option for folks who had IOLS.

 

I don't mind mandatory training, heck I think training is very important and serve as a trainer, but it looks as if national wants us to go through retraining every time they change a course if I'm reading the training update correctly. And I'm sorry, but I am busy dealing with a family and putting on a program to attend a training course on material I already know every time they change the name. That's what Round Tables are for: keeping current with BSA info.

[CricketEagle 15]

Basement,

 

I can only guess by the tone of your posting that you did not read, or did not get the intent of my original posting. To be direct, you don't know me, it sounds as if you are comparing me to some bad experiences you may have had.

 

I am not looking for an "Opt Out", but at most a "Test-Out". I am willing to stand up and prove that I have the skills. If I could even find the course time that I could work around my schedule and 2 unit schedules I would.

Also, keep in mind I have some bigger fish to fry at the moment with involvement in two units and simply trying to stay employed, etc. I don't have much more time to given other than the 30+ days a year I already do.

 

To make this even more clear, once again I am PRO-training, but this one I have to question given the time I have at the moment. My question related to this course and re-chartering.

 

Just finding the training in a "rural" council is an issue.