Basementdweller 608 Posted October 18, 2011 Share Posted October 18, 2011 I gotta ask Jay what was/is your experience in scouting Link to post Share on other sites
juggerwubba 10 Posted October 18, 2011 Share Posted October 18, 2011 I guess I just have to "man up" and get on with my ticket items. I just can't help feeling disappointed. The course I attended was not the mountaintop experience advertised. I can certainly not recommend it to anyone I like. I am still trying to decide if I can recite the Scout law without barfing at "trustworthy" I'll grow out of it. Link to post Share on other sites
jrush 11 Posted October 18, 2011 Share Posted October 18, 2011 Jugger, Just keep in mind that the course may very well have been that "mountaintop experience" for other Scouters. As has been mentioned, the course is different things to different people...both participants and staffers. As far as "barfing over Trustworthy" (was this a veiled reference to TGOL?) goes, I just remember that people are who they are, and the neckerchief slide doesn't hold fairy dust or mystical runes or divine blessings which change that. The oath says "do my best", and some Scouters' best invariably won't be the same as others'. Link to post Share on other sites
Basementdweller 608 Posted October 18, 2011 Share Posted October 18, 2011 jugger More and more people are stepping forward and giving woodbadge less than stellar reviews. Just like you I spent the entire course looking for that "Moment", well it just never happened. I am about two weeks from completing my ticket. I took the course 14 months ago. I will NEVER recommend woodbadge and have already talked a couple of folks locally out of taking it. Both were professionals and had taken a bunch of corporate leader training that was fair superior to amateur night at woodbadge. A funny side story, The first person to complete his ticket has all but destroyed his Pack completing his ticket.....I had 18 of his 24 scout transfer one complete den and parts of the others to my Pack......He has become one of those woodbadgers...... Link to post Share on other sites
Basementdweller 608 Posted October 18, 2011 Share Posted October 18, 2011 Jugger..... I am wondering if we had the same woodbadge trainers?????? Our council just completed this years version a month or two ago, roughly the same time or your original post. I am in Ohio. Link to post Share on other sites
moosetracker 132 Posted October 18, 2011 Share Posted October 18, 2011 Basement, that is sad.. I suspect it was the poor execution of the Woodbadge course on your part, rather then this guys fault.. And also maybe a bad ticket counselor to boot.. The purpose of everything is not to chart a course and stick with it, even if you are hitting reefs and iceburgss.. You are suppose to do some self-evaluations and listen to those around you as to if you are on a winning path, or if it is not going well.. Then re-evaluate and change course if need be.. The VISION is the main thing and that is seeing where you envision your unit to be in 18 months.. The ticket items can be modified to get you to the vision.. The main thing is to work with (not against) your unit (youth & adults) to get you to where you want the unit to be.. Unless this guy wrote on his Vision "I see my unit with only one scout (my son).." then he is failing his vision horribly.. Doesn't matter that the tickets (the mission steps) were flawlessly executed. I have heard that in previous courses ticket items have down right failed, and if they LEARNED from it and changed course it is an A-plus.. Woodbadge is not to teach you to be a dictator.. If his ticket counsilor is forcing him to continue on a death-march, then shame on that ticket-counsilor.. A SM may let a scout fail to learn, but he wouldn't allow him to stubbornly continue until the troop failed, before he would step in and GUIDE... Link to post Share on other sites
Basementdweller 608 Posted October 18, 2011 Share Posted October 18, 2011 Moose, I have no idea what his ticket was or is........But he was the first and a huge braggart about it. Stood up at roundtable and announced it. He did it in less than 4 months. Link to post Share on other sites
Kudu 186 Posted October 18, 2011 Share Posted October 18, 2011 The cure for the Wood Badge "leadership skills" version of the Patrol Method is William "Green Bar Bill" Hillcourt's two volume 3rd edition of the Handbook for Scoutmasters. About $20 per volume. See: http://tinyurl.com/ydutcxo Bill Hillcourt was hired by James West in the 1920s to replace "modern" leadership theory with what Hillcourt called the "Real" Patrol Method (see the Scouter.Com Site Dedication in the lower right-hand corner of your screen). Yours at 300 feet, Kudu http://kudu.net Link to post Share on other sites
Eagle92 110 Posted October 19, 2011 Share Posted October 19, 2011 (shakes head) Kudu, Kudu, Kudu, You and I both know that the 3rd. SMHB is only basic training, and that you need to get GBB's WB course, or at least his BROWNSEA Z2 course (which I have the syllabus for if anyone is interested), to expereince the patrol method up close and personal Link to post Share on other sites
Kudu 186 Posted October 19, 2011 Share Posted October 19, 2011 Real Patrol Leadership is measured in feet or miles: It's not Baden-Powell's "Patrol System" unless the Patrols camp at least 150-300 feet apart (in a circle around the Scouters' campsite). How many Wood Badge Staffers take that practice home with them? 1 in 1,000? 1 in 10,000? 1 in 100,000? It's not Hillcourt's "Real" Patrol Method unless the Patrols hike and camp without adult supervision. How many Wood Badge participants take that practice home with them? 1 in 1,000? 1 in 10,000? 1 in 100,000? Yours at Baden-Powell's basic 300 feet, Kudu http://inquiry.net/traditional/wood_badge/index.htm Link to post Share on other sites
GKlose 24 Posted October 19, 2011 Share Posted October 19, 2011 Come to think of it -- the last time I was in a patrol (or saw a patrol) that camped at least 300' from another patrol was when I was in a Brownsea 22 course, August 1976. :-) In fact, I'm not sure I knew how close the next patrol was -- we never saw anyone else, except in the parade field. Contrast that to my son's relatively recent experience with Brownsea 22 (one of the few councils that still uses the old syllabus for this course -- independent of the NYLT course that's run)...I think they had 6 patrols, 3 each in two campsites, putting them about, what, 15 feet apart? :-) Link to post Share on other sites
jrush 11 Posted October 19, 2011 Share Posted October 19, 2011 Kudu, There's no reason to go after WB and their "destruction" of GBB's "real" Patrol Method until you get national to rescind the policy requiring trained adult supervison of scouting activities. Why would a Woodbadge Staffer go back home thinking that he or she can drive a patrol to the local 30 mile backpacking trail, drop them off at the trailhead Friday afternoon, and say "see you Sunday at the end"? GBB's "real" patrol method is forbidden as a matter of national policy. What is your suggestion? That WB change to course to say "we're here to teach you about William Hillcourt's 'real' Patrol Method. Never mind that youth protection hooie that national 'requires', here's how your patrols need to camp and hike"? I appreciate GBB's "real" patrol method, and I agree it would be far more effective at putting youth in real positions of leadership and responsibility. That being said, you can't have both the "real" Patrol Method and Youth Protection as it currently stands. Your argument shouldn't be against WB, it should be against the constraints placed on the Patrol Method by YP. I know, it's a lot easier to rail agaisnt WB than it is to rail against YP, but there it is. Litigation killed GBB's Patrol Method, not WB. Link to post Share on other sites
Eagle92 110 Posted October 19, 2011 Share Posted October 19, 2011 While Kudu can defend himself, I do have a few thoughts. Yep national got rid of real patrol camping due to lawsuits. It sucks I know, but we have to adapt, improvise, and overcome. One way of doing that is having folks 300' apart minimum. I remember in my old in the 80s and 90s being so far apart from other patrols and the leaders, that you didn't really know they were there. Unless some screaming and choice language was heard. THEN you knew the leaders around . Link to post Share on other sites
jrush 11 Posted October 19, 2011 Share Posted October 19, 2011 Eagle, my point was that it's silly to blame WB for not teaching a version of the patrol method which violates 2-deep leadership requirements in YP. The B-P Patrol Method of 300' between patrols is certainly easy if the area allows it. There was about that much room (more or less)between the patrols at our WB course. That Patrol Method is able to be implemented within the constraints of YP. The GBB "real" Patrol Method, however, requires that patrols be able to operate independently. That verson of the PM cannot be implemented within the constraints of YP. That's not the fault of WB, it's the fault of YP. My suggestion? Push to get the BSA to amend YP to state 2-deep leadership is required *if* adults are at a scouting function. Leave it to the CO if the troop will be allowed to implement GBB's Patrol Method. THEN we heap blame and scorn on WB for not teaching it. Right now, a WB course that teaches GBB's Patrol method would be a colossal waste of timeM Link to post Share on other sites
moosetracker 132 Posted October 19, 2011 Share Posted October 19, 2011 jrush - The two deep leadership rule is, that if you have any adult leadership it must be 2 or more.. If you have no adult leadership then it can be zero.. They downed the overnights without adult leadership, but day trips (for a patrol, not a troop or a subset of the troop) are still allowed to have no adult leadership if they have parents consent.. So while the 2 deep on overnights is correct it is not for YP reasons.. It is for some other "cover your butt" reason.. But other then that you are correct WB would be silly to demonstrate something that troops can not do, per BSA rules. Link to post Share on other sites
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