Clarifying Erroneous Info

[moosetracker 132]

I went to BALOO training this Saturday. Some of the stuff I heard, I have my doubts about the facts on. Considering I am planning to use this knowledge to start BALOO training in our District. Sure would be nice if I knew the facts.

 

1) I was told that with Pack Camping the ration of scout to adult is 5:1.. I think I heard this for summer camp. But I know this forum always seems to indicate the parent is assumed to be on the camping trip with the boy.. I read in G2SS the following. Page 18.. Pack Overnighters.. In most cases, each youth member will be under the supervision of a parent or guardian. In all cases, each youth participant is responsible to a specific adult.. OK.. BSA writting.. Clear as mud.. Ther is not 5:1 mentioned. But I wish they said "All" not most.. The all is the youth has a specific adult, but some could argue that adult is assigned to be in charge of 5 cubs.. Anyone have something with a clearer definition??

 

2) This I never heard of except from a UC at the training. If you lapse in your Youth protections.. All your other training is elimintated and lost. You have to retake all training over again. "Ahhhh... I don't think so..." Still now I have heard this, I want others to confirm that this is not true. This just seems way too harsh, and unfair. You don't loose your IOLS training, because you let your YP lapse for a week or two. Even if you don't get on the charter right away, you still get to keep your membership ID, when you do renew, and that will have your training on it. I left scouting and did not renew my membership for about 6 months, yet I got my old membership ID given back to me, and all my training was still good.

 

3) On this they may be correct and I am wrong, but I thought I read it somewhere, yet it did not seem correct when I read it. Baloo only has to be taken once.. I thought I read somewhere that it needed to be retaken every two yrs or every three years.

 

If anyone can clean up these discrepencies for me, I would appreciate it.

[dg98adams 18]

BALOO, Webelos Outdoor Skills, IOLS and position specific are a 1-time course, no expiration date. - check the cards - no expiration.

 

Youth Protection and Safe Swim/Safety Afloat is 2 years, BSA lifeguard is 3 years - cards have expiration dates.

 

 

From the Guide To Safe Scouting,

Under Cub Scout Safe Swim Defense/Safety Afloat, in supervision: the ratio of Cubs to Adult Supervisors is 1 to 5....(For Boy Scouts it's 1:10).

 

Otherwise Cub Camping is 1:1 (and always 2 deep leadership).

 

It's in the BALOO syllabus.... and Guide to Safe Scouting. When you chair the course, make sure your staff does not tell the attendees how "their pack does it", that's how wrong info gets perpetuated.

 

when I have chaired the course, I try to find "answers to questions" in the book and show them where I found it.

(This message has been edited by dg98adams)

[ScoutLass 10]

1)The 5:1 ratio I though applied to summer camp/day camp. That's how it's implemented around here anyways. The wording is clear as mud because it applies to parents with multiple kids. in other words, each cub is answerable to one adult (preferably a parent/gaurdian), but a parent with two sons as cubs may have two cubs he is responsible for. Not that the adult is responsible for two or three cubs that are not related to him.

 

2)To my knowledge, other training doesn't expire just because YP does. Of course, since they've been messing around with YP this year, this could be a change or a glitch in the myscouting record that I am unaware of.

 

3)Baloo doesn't expire and only has to be taken once. From tour permit Faq:

Q. Does the BALOO training that is listed in the activity training matrix have an expiration?

 

A. BALOO is a locally administered course that does not have an expiration date. Repeating the course biannually is not a requirement at this time. Insert the date you took BALOO into the training matrix.

 

 

[ScoutNut 147]

1) This could be a council specific rule, for council/district Cub activities. It can also be used as a maximum number for Pack camping in case you have families who view BSA as Baby Sitters of America. In general though, Pack camping is FAMILY camping. That means parent/child.

 

2) That is just down right silly, and completely wrong.

 

3) In numerous places, BSA has stated that BALOO is a one time only course.

 

Before starting to organize any BALOO training, get a copy of the most current BALOO syllabus. Read it, and make sure any BALOO course directors, and BALOO staff follow it.

 

Adding useful handouts, and demonstrations, to improve your presentation of a subject is one thing. Spreading Scouting Myths is quite another.

 

[John-in-KC 311]

2) is a crock. Now, YP is a condition of joining, and currency is a condition of re-registration.

[moosetracker 132]

Thanks, Yep that's why I came here with the things that didn't jive..

 

My BALOO syllabus is a hand-me-down dated 10 years back (probably first edition, as before that I was in cubs and they didn't allow us to do pack camping at all.) I guess this is one of those books that is now tangled up with the lawyers who are rewriting everything, so I can't get a newer version.

 

I don't know where I read the Baloo needed renewing, I thought it was on something creditable, like myScouting.org, I know it was a factual list of what trainings needed to be renewed and the timeframe for the renewal. I know that one jumped out at me when I read it, because all others made sense, except for that one, so I am glad to know that it is only one time. That does make more sense.

 

I agree that #2 is just plain silly. I would imagine it is someone guessing that if there membership lapses without renewal, the fact that BSA computer system is poor, they will loose all information and will need to start over. Then it just passed down the chain enough times, to go from "What will happen if..." to "This will happen if..."

 

Does anyone have the wording of "Pack Camping is a ratio of 1:1", or "Pack Camping is Family camping" in something authoritative (if BALOO a new copy then my 10 years back one.) I would like to pass on this info to the District who did the training, and get them to start passing on valid info.. I am also now joining a Cub Pack who 5 people in the pack just got this training, and I would like to correct them about the information they got.

 

 

 

 

[Twocubdad 665]

All three are BS.

 

SOP for this is to politely ask the person spewing the BS to please provide a citation for the BSA publication in which you can find the policy. But don't hold your breath while they look for it.

 

And even if it is a local regulation, it still needs to be in writing somewhere.

[Beavah 205]

Actually, pack camping is 2:1, eh?

 

Sort of.

 

A parent must be responsible for each boy. Or another adult can be designated by the parent to be responsible for a boy, but that other adult can only be responsible for one such "added" boy.

 

Leastways, that's my memory of it.

 

B

 

[gcnphkr 11]

Pack overnighters are always in the context of families.

 

Under Family Camping:

"Parents are responsible for the supervision of their children".

 

Webelos dens can do overnighters apart form the pack.

 

Under Age Guidelines:

"In most cases the Webelos Scout will be under the supervisor of his parent or guardian. It is essential that each Webelos Scout be under the supervision of a parent-approved adult. Joint Webelos Den-troop campouts including the parents of the Webelos Scouts are encouraged to strengthen the ties between pack and troop. Den leaders, pack leaders and parents are expected to accompany the boys on approved trips."

 

There is no 5:1 ration for pack campouts.

[shortridge 184]

All the definitions of pack camping, family camping and ratios, are in the G2SS.

 

http://www.scouting.org/scoutsource/HealthandSafety/GSS/gss03.aspx

[moosetracker 132]

Yep.. I was looking at the G2SS which defines Family Camping, and Pack Overnighters seperate.. So I don't quit have it that Pack overnighters is Family camping..

 

But... I do see this one little nugget in the Pack Overnighters area..

 

"Pack Overnighters: These are pack-organized overnight events involving moren than one FAMILY from a single pack,... So I guess I will state my case that this is Family camping with this tiny little nugget.. Then go to the info provided on Family camping, for more indepth information.

 

[moosetracker 132]

Oh yeah one other thing I was told, that was triggered reading another forum.

 

Venturing Age limit is being brought down from 14 to 13.. Anyone hear this?

[Rockford8070 10]

"Oh yeah one other thing I was told, that was triggered reading another forum.

 

Venturing Age limit is being brought down from 14 to 13.. Anyone hear this? "

 

Yes. But there is a condition. They must also have completed the 8th grade if they are 13.

[Lisabob 13]

Ah, Beavah, which BSA publication did that come from? I don't recall having ever read that policy anywhere. Might be I missed it, but might be you're mis-remembering, too?

 

(on a side note, I agree it is typically 'preferable' not to have one adult answerable for, say, 12 kids!)

 

[acco40 95]

Overnight camping by Tiger, Wolf and Bear dens is not allowed. Tiger Cubs may attend pack overnighters. Wolf and Bear Cub Scouts and Webelos Scouts can attend resident camps operating under BSA National Camping School trained leadership and managed by the council.

 

A Webelos Scout may participate in overnight den camping when supervised by an adult. In most cases, the Webelos Scout will be under the supervision of his parent or guardian. It is essential that each Webelos Scout be under the supervision of a parent-approved adult. Joint Webelos den-troop campouts including the parents of the Webelos Scouts are encouraged to strengthen ties between the pack and troop. Den leaders, pack leaders, and parents are expected to accompany the boys on approved trips.

 

 

Pack Overnighters

These are pack-organized overnight events involving more than one family from a single pack, focused on age-appropriate Cub Scout activities and conducted at council-approved locations (councils use Pack Overnighter Site Approval Form, No. 13-508). If nonmembers (siblings) participate, the event must be structured accordingly to accommodate them. BSA health and safety and youth protection guidelines apply. In most cases, each youth member will be under the supervision of a parent or guardian. In all cases, each youth participant is responsible to a specific adult.

 

At least one adult on a pack overnighter must have completed Basic Adult Leader Outdoor Orientation (BALOO, No. 34162) to properly understand the importance of program intent, youth protection guidelines, health and safety, site selection, age-appropriate activities, and sufficient adult participation. Permits for campouts shall be issued locally. Packs use Local Tour Permit Application, No. 34426.

 

Two-deep leadership

Two registered adult leaders or one registered leader and a parent of a participant, one of whom must be 21 years of age or older, are required on all trips and outings. (Den meetings are not trips or outings so two deep leadership is NOT required - something many are mistaken about.) There are a few instances, such as patrol activities, when no adult leadership is required. Coed overnight activities, even those including parent and child, require male and female adult leaders, both of whom must be 21 years of age or older, and one of whom must be a registered member of the BSA.