Troop Visitation- Arrow of Light

[ciderscout]

In a small town with only one troop, What kind of options would a Webelos Den Leader have for visitiong a troop If the Scoutmaster has told the Den Leader that he will check with the PLC about what meeting would they be available for a visitation by the Den. My Den Leader asked if it were possible for more than one meeting because it's possible that some of the Boys might not make it to the meeting. As attending a Troop meeting is a requirement for Arrow of Light, not recieving Arrow of Light because of missing one meeting is not acceptable. I know some of the Scoutmasters in neighboring towns, but that is awkward at best since the boys in the Den will know no Scout at the meeting. At least in town they will know some of the boys.

Along the Same line as troop visitation is attending a Boy Scout activity. Again the Scoutmaster has suggested that there is only one activity that they could possibly attend, and the boys could possibly get something out of it if they have orinteering skills. I have less of a problem with the Boy Scout activity than the meeting as in our district the Webelos can attend the Klondike Derby for the Day, (the troops not going), and after the Webelos program they can watch what the Boy Scout patrols have to do to compete in the Derby.

I had thought about talking with Our unit commissioner as the Commissioner for the Pack is the Same as for the Troop, but he is new as a commisioner and I'm not sure about his relationship with the troop. For years the Troop had a commisioner who had boys in the troop and the Packs in town had no commissioner.But that's another story.

Anyway just wondering if anyone else has come upon this problem in the past.

[LauraT7]

 

Since you can't come visit OUR troop (we would welcome you with open arms at ANY time!) I would have a frank talk with the powers that be - be it your commissioner or the troop scoutmaster or committee chair, or all three!

 

It sound like this troop, being the ONLY troop in your area, is EXPECTING all your boys to join them and not making any attempt to service the boys needs. Even if recruiting is easy - it still needs to service the boys first! Getting their Arrow of Light is important, and a boy shouldn't miss out because of missing ONE meeting or activity.

 

However, we ran into a similar problem with Webelos when my son was in 5th grade - our district also allowed Webelos to attend Klondike for the day, and EVERYBODY depended on that to meet the Arrow of light requirement for participating in a BOY SCOUT activity. But you know what? NATIONAL BSA rules say that cubs can't attend Klondikes and our district, after years of doing it anyway, decided not to allow Webelos at Klondike, and there we were - stuck without a backup plan!

 

Now, as a BSA troop - our meetings are ALWAYs open to visitors, tho we may warn parents and boys that some of them are not as interesting as others. We do have special meetings periodically specifically for Webelos and parents, too. We compete with other troops for new webelos, and we do NOT have a pack associated with our troop, so we have to work at getting boys to visit and join. We also realize that one activity a year is not enough, like you said, not everyone can make it on a particular day. But the rules for cub scouts at an activity are very different than the rules for a boy scout activity (exactly why Klondikes are off limits) so cubs can't just attend ANY boy Scout activity. We started a new program this year to do an activity each quarter, geared to the cub scouting rules and invite dens to participate, not just watch.

 

Your district needs to know that the troop that services your town is NOT giving the cubs enough opportunity to meet requirements for Arrow of Light and advancement into Boy Scouts. If they want scouting to continue in your area, they WILL do something about it. Talk to them !

 

 

[nldscout]

Where does it say Webelos can not attend and view a klondike derby. We still do it with seperate events for the Webelos. We are planning on it again this year

[Pack38Scouter]

Troop Visit should be a time where the Webelos and his parent can observe and learn more about the troop. It would be ideal to have the troop be prepared to the receive the boys, but the "prepared" events do not reflect the true operation of the troop. I personally like "surprise" visits better ... it gives the true reflection of a troop and not a show for the purpose of recruiting.

 

In our case, in Houston, we have well over 2-6 troops within the 10 miles driving distance ... we have a choice and the troops actually go out and recruit. In your case, it seems that you don't have much of a choice. Sometimes, visiting another troop can give you a better idea of how a different troop runs. Remember, when your Webelos join scouting ... you and the other Webelos parents come along with the ride! You all can make a difference in that troop. I know that my Webelos 2 parents and I are making a difference in one of our local troop.

 

I guess that the bottom line is to have the Webelos join in the scouting activities so that they can experience the scouting way of life (the transition) ... not to stand around and admire the troop.

[LauraT7]

I can't quote book and page -

 

Where's Bob White when I need him? LOL!

 

but i do know that it's a National level BSA rule/guideline that Webelos cannot PARTICIPATE in a Boy Scout camporee or Klondike....

 

I think the reason given was that the skill levels, hardship of a winter event / camping etc and less parental involvement are beyond the limits for Cubs.

 

Your council may get around the rule legally if they set up a simultanious Klondike FOR the cubs at the same time and location. Then the cubs are not competing with or against Scouts, and not doing scout level skills. But if that's what they do - then they are still attending a CUB function - the idea (under the Arrow of Light requirements) is for them to participate in a SCOUT event With a troop - the intention is for them to get an impression of being a Boy Scout vs Cubs.

 

So if they go to Klondike and compete with other cubs, and then sit around and watch the Boy Scouts, but don't interact with them much - what do the Webelos get out of it & how does that meet the Arrow of Light requirement?

[Mike F]

I agree with Pack38Scouter - must be a Houston thing.

You don't really want a prepared visitation night -- it's best to see what they really do at their normal meetings. (Hopefully your son will see lots of activity and fun that he wants to be a part of. He doesn't want to sit in a side room and have people tell him about it - he wants to see it.)

The Webelos AOL requirement says visit a Troop meeting -- it doesn't say visit a Troop orientation meeting for prospective new members.

You can schedule an orientation meeting for boys and parents after they've seen the fun and decided to join.

[KoreaScouter]

Ditto to my peers; visiting a camporee (klondike if it's cold) is okay -- the intent is not to put the Webelos through the same paces as the Boy Scouts.

 

The key to this whole thing is advance planning (is there any other kind?). Scoutmaster and Cubmaster need to be in each others' hip pockets in September. Between then and February, there will be ample opportunities in a well-run program for the Webelos to get to a troop meeting and an outdoor-oriented troop activity.

 

KS

[nldscout]

What we do for the webelos is Invite them to the Klondike derby. They are scheduled to arrive 30 minutes after the Boy scouts start the stations. The morning is dedicated to separate Webelos events, that are part teaching, part skills testing. We take care of Lunch for webelos and make sure they get to see all the cooking the boys are doing for lunch competition as lunch for the Scouts is a graded event. Then after lunch They get to visit the stations for a tryout type to see how and what its all about. Of course if there is a patrol at the station they get first priority. Then they get to stay for closing and our short campfire. It has worked well the last couple of years for us.

[jbroganjr]

lets separate the wheat from the chafe here.

for the AOL (Arrow of light, not that lousy ISP), go visit the other troops. It will make your live easier and not set up a "match" tween you and the SM. Now, pay close attention to how your request is handled in the other towns... were they accomadating? How many restrictions where put on you? When you visit, as an adult, note everything you can. Do the boys run the meetings? Where your scouts invited into the meeting activities or were they wall flowers?

Now here are my feelings and this is how our troop runs. One, we do not put on special meetings for webelos. No, we communicate with them what the PLC has planned for the month because it is not much fun showing up for a meeting where gear/menus/planning for an upcoming event is going on as it is basically only work. No, we suggest they come to the meetins prior to that one so they can see and be involved with fun preparations or activities, etc.

As for no cubs doing boy scout camporees and klondikes activities, that may be a guideline, not abold print thing in G2SS, but webelos are not cub scouts and are encourage to participate in the boy scout programs at these events. The webelos reg. with a troop and stay with the troop. Hopefully they are integrated into either their own patrol with a guide or into existing patrols. (in our troop, the scouts really use their resources with webelos, having most of them help with the campfire skit...at the older boys would rather instruct and let the younger guys do)

Now to the chafe. I do not get all warm and fuzzy when a SM tells me that the have to plan a special meeting for webelos...often ends up being a bait and switch and the boys suffer. One wow em meeting then they sign up and are treated to regular, less wow em meetings.

Two, You would think this SM had a clue about how the troop grows...with active cub/troop activity through out the year through the webelos program. [The only time this was a problem for us is when webelos outnubmer boy scouts and that is not a problem...for the all hands on deck means we have a lot of temp. troop guides]

All those notes I asked you to take of the other troops...well they are there as a resource to judge the troop that your boys will probably end up joining. You have also extended your circle of scouting friends, because do not doubt for a minute that SM and CM and such know a lot about each other from district events.

So go see the other troops, ful fill the boys requirements for AOL. See how the program works other places, ask if you can go along with another troop to a klondike. It won't really matter do much if the boys don't know each other if the program is being followed because your boys will know each other.

Tx

J

[ciderscout]

I definately don't want to set up a "match between the Scoutmaster and I. Right now I am the outsider and definately don't want to push too hard. I still have a younger son who will join the pack at the end of this year. Gotta have his own copy of Boy's Life. So I'm still very committed to the Cub Program, but will assist at the Boy Scout level as much as my schedule , and committee allows. The last I heard the Troop was going to schedule a meeting specifically for "Webelos" night. I agree that the "special " meeting does set up for a bait and switch. This year we haven't had much Troop/ Pack interaction due to a lack of an availability of Den Chiefs. Last year our second year webelos had a great Den chief and a good portion of the boys crossed over into the troop. This year, as far as I know there is only one Den Chief, He originally came from the other pack in town, so naturally he is a Den Chief in his home pack. How the troop grows- this year has the potential to be a bumper year for the troop as there are 18 second year Webelos in our pack and about the same in the other pack. I have already heard that some of the boys in my sons den won't cross over. I disheartens me to hear this as they haven't been exposed to the program. Without troop visitations all I can do is wax nostalgic to the fun I had when I was a youth in this same troop. The fun of the campouts on the hill, Gettysburg, Jamborees, Westpoint, Summer Camp. Any all the friends I made at every lodge and section conclaves. That many of my friends and mentors then are still active now. But I'm rambling now and I think it better for the boys to see and participate than to here their Cubmaster talk about the good old days

YIS

 

[NJCubScouter]

There is no Arrow of Light requirement to PARTICIPATE in a Boy Scout event. Here is what requirement number 4 says:

 

With your Webelos den, visit at least one Boy Scout troop meeting, and one Boy Scout-oriented outdoor activity.

 

Just for purposes of comparison, here is requirement number 5:

 

Participate in a Webelos overnight campout or day hike.

 

One thing that has been drummed into me in Scout training is that when writing advancement requirements, Scouting picks its verbs very carefully, and they mean different things. So when it says to "tell" something, the boy is not required to "show" that thing, and when it says "show," talking isn't enough. Same is true with "visit" and "participate." It's not an accident that when talking about Boy Scout activities, the Arrow of Light requirements say "visit," and when talking about a Webelos outdoor activity, it says "participate." The boys can "visit" a Klondike Derby, camporee, outdoor skills demonstration, or whatever. They don't need any "skills" to do that (except for being on their best behavior, if that is a "skill") because they are not required to "participate." They are not SUPPOSED to "participate." That's the whole point of the visit, they are there to watch, and to become interested and excited about doing what they are seeing the Boy Scouts do, so they want to do those things when their times comes.

 

Now, I don't think that means they have to stand there with their hands in their pockets, and there also is no rule against the Webelos learning something along the way. Nor do I think they are prohibited from trying their hand at some basic skill if it takes place in a controlled, supervised setting, with safety paramount. For example, a Boy Scout patrol is cooking lunch, and the visiting Webelos are with that patrol, and the patrol leader shows how to prepare some part of the meal, and says to the first boy, "now you try it." In a few minutes, each of the Webelos has now prepared part of his own lunch, and he's learned something; he'll probably learn it again after he is a Scout, but he has at least gotten a "taste," no pun intended. Technically speaking that is "participation," but it is not what I am talking about. It does not require any previously learned skills.

 

I recall that last winter, the Webelos 2's from my pack attended the district Klondike Derby as invited guests of the troop they were considering joining. It was all held on an open field so the Webelos got to see what all the troops were doing. All the Webelos really did was stand at the edge of the field and watch. Maybe they got to handle the sled for a few feet after the event itself was over. Point of the story is, they didn't even have to touch the sled to fulfill the Arrow of Light requirement. They just had to be there and watch.(This message has been edited by NJCubScouter)

[NJCubScouter]

I left out one thing. I doubt there is a rule that prohibits Webelos from ATTENDING a Klondike Derby. There may very well be a rule that would prohibit all Cubs from PARTICIPATING in Klondike Derbies. I believe there is a rule prohibiting Webelos and other Cubs from staying overnight at Boy Scout events such as camporees and Klondike Derbies. But "attending" during daytime hours would just be "visiting," which is required for the Arrow of Light.

[GreyingWolf]

Hey, it's "do your best", isn't it? If a boy is making a college-try to meet the requirement, and can't because of circumstances beyond his control...

[AvidSM]

As a Scoutmaster, I agree with having a special recruitment night when the Webelos visit. Why take a chance with a regular meeting that may or may not go so well? Once in a while a regular meeting bombs. Webelos and their parents would not understand this. Is this being dishonest or deceptive? I don't think so. It's just putting your best face forward.

 

Also, we separate the parents away from the boys at this meeting and give them sales pitch. What scouting can do for your son ... why join our troop as opposed to another ...

 

Have your Webelos and parent that can't make the special meeting show up the next week unannounced. What Scoutmaster would turn away a possible recruit?

[Lisabob]

I'd look at that next town's troops more closely. Sounds like you may have an SM in your town's troop who isn't accustomed to having original thoughts (shudder). By the way, nothing states you have to attend events in your council or district. If you are within driving distance of another district or council, contact them and see what kind of Boy Scout and/or Webelos events they've got coming up between now and your B&G. If something sounds interesting, ask if it would be ok to attend, even just to watch. If you aren't told NO in resounding terms, also ask them to maybe hook you up with a solid troop that'll be there for the day.

 

This is something we did with our Webelos guys, just to provide an additional opportunities for all the boys to fulfill the requirements. Turned out to be the highlight of the year and the council, district, and troop leaders we teamed up with were wonderful to us although they understood clearly that we were coming from a ways away and wouldn't ever be joining their troop/district/council.

 

Lisa'bob

A good old bobwhite too!