The ManScout & WB

[prairie]

I see many ManScouts with Woodbadge beads, some with patrol pins, patchs, pocket dangles, ect.. Does the training awaken ManScout tendences? Or are training and trappings irristable to the ManScout?

 

I have not yet gone to Wood Badge so I'm left to judge its efectiveness by how its graduates behave, and isn't that the point? To provide a better Scouting experinace for the youth?

 

BTW: I have not seen a WomanScout yet, must be rare.

[Gold Winger]

Trappings and Man Scouting are two separate things. Men in general, across the world, like to adorn themselves with momentos of their accomplishments. Tribal tattoos to recount bravery. Scalps. Coats of arms. Look at uniforms of soldiers. Ribbons, braids, brass buttons. Of course there are the exceptions that say, "I'm soooo good that I don't have to wear anything" but they are rare. Some men like to wear momentos for vicarious accomplishments like wearing a Pittsburgh Steelers necklace or getting a NY Rangers tattoo which I think is incredibly silly. Others like to decorate themselves with brand names of products that they like such as Budweiser of Harley-Davidson which I think is equally silly.

 

Women folk, on the otherhand, like to decorate themselves to either enhance their attractiveness or to show off how powerful their mate is or both. Big diamonds serve NO useful purpose unless you get trapped in a glass room, all they do is show that the associated man had enough wherewithal to buy a useless and overpriced piece of shiney rock.

 

It is just the way that we are wired.

 

You'll find Man Scouts with few decorations, saying "I don't need awards" and doing their best to disrupt the program and you'll well decorated adults that are the embodiement of Baden-Powell.

 

To a large extent, I think that the leaders who go a bit over the top are good for the program if they let the boys run the program. When the boys see the troop committee out there in the woods with a Rocking Chair Patrol flag and singing about being a hamster, they say, "If these geezers are willing to do some of this goofy stuff, maybe it isn't that bad."

 

When I do Cub Scout leader training, I always stress that if the adults don't buy into the silliness of the program, the boys won't. The songs, the skits, the games.

 

I know a former den leader who thought that the whole Cub Scouting program was silly because it wasn't like it was when he was a Boy Scout. I tried until I was blue in the face to explain that Cub Scouting and Boy Scouting were different animals. His attitude carried over the boys and none continued to Boy Scouts.

 

I've been at pack meetings where a Den leader will sit there glowering the whole night because of the goofy songs and skits. His den always follows suit.

 

The same is true in Boy Scouts, if the adults that the boys see aren't willing to have fun and go a bit over the top, the boys won't either.

[Beavah]

Yah, there are definitely WomanScouts, prairie. Fairly easy to spot 'em. Fully adorned like the ManScout. Often fairly "drill sergeant" in their demeanor... da aggressive female who is provin' herself in a man's world. Frequently found on district staff but occasionally as female SM's, though that's more rare.

 

My guess is 30-70% of WB's are ManScouts, dependin' on your area. It often attracts da wannabe Eagles who never made it as a kid. I'd say it's a slightly better predictor than the knot-infested.

 

Singfests and silliness are less predictive, as GoldWinger points out. Especially at the cub and NSP boy scout level, it's good to have adults who are zany. By age 13, though, it's as likely to be "those geezers are gay, and I don't want to be here with them acting like little kids all da time." Teens want to be seen and treated as grown-ups.

 

The big teller on ManScout is whether the stuff is about the kids, or about them. Some folks wear knots or beads because it's about the kids - a program reinforcement. Some do it because it's about them. The latter are da ManScouts. Hard thing is that all ManScouts will claim it's about the kids. But yeh can usually tell by how much they talk about themselves, aka using their knots or beads as "conversation starters." If 90% of their conversation isn't about children or how the program affects kids, they're a ManScout. Well, maybe 80% as long as da other 20% is about outdoor gear (in general, not their own gear) .

 

Beavah

 

[Gold Winger]

"those geezers are gay,"

 

If they're saying that about you there's probably a reason other than a willingness to sing at campfires.

 

" Teens want to be seen and treated as grown-ups."

 

That's true but they still want to be kids. Because they know that the adults are a little bit crazy, the older guys in my son's troop sing the dining hall songs as loudly as anyone and love doing campfire skits. The older boys do come up with better skits than the invisible bench.

 

Under the old regime, the boys eschewed fun because the Scoutmaster thought that everything involved with Scouting was silly and the boys usually dropped out by 14 unless their parents were intent on them getting Eagle.

 

Treating them like an adult means that you let them know that they have a job to do it is expected to be done. Treating them like an adult means that you talk to them about life, the universe and everything. Treating them like an adult means that you expect them to take responsibility for their actions.

 

Silliness is all throughout the manly world. There was something on the news the other day about a high school football team that does the Hakka, the Maori war dance, before every game, that's pretty silly. Hoo-ah and Hoo-rah are silly. Fraternity handshakes are silly. The shriner's fez is silly. Putting your hands together and yelling, "Go Hamsters!" before a game is silly.

 

As silly as any of these might be to outsiders, the provide a tangible bond to tie the group together.

[hot_foot_eagle]

Beavah's comment about eagle wannabes got me wondering: does a lack of an eagle knot correlate with manscoutness, and if so, is WB a catalyst or just a natural progression of the disease in these individuals?

 

 

[Gonzo1]

Right On Beavah!

 

Prairie, I think what Beavah said is right, women trying to be man like, proving themselves like Annie Oakley.

 

Hot Foot,

the absence of the Eagle knot does not necessarily lead to manscoutness, but it's probably a start.

 

[Eamonn]

So far I'm not sold on this "ManScout" idea.

Evey time I see it I can't help but think about Tim Allen (Tim on Home Improvement)

I am who I am!!

I'm very comfortable in my own skin.

There are some things I'm good at and a lot of things I'm lousy at.

I have spent a lifetime in Scouting.

I would hope that along the way I have done some good and really hope that I have worked to serve others.

But being really honest I remained in for the most part because I was having fun.

I enjoy the youth members, be they the little Lad's at Day Camps, Boy Scouts who struggle to learn the joys of knots, or the older youth who try and convince me that Rap music is where it's at.

I enjoy the adults in Scouting, nearly all my best friends are people I have met through Scouting.

As for Wood Badge?

Don't get me wrong. I enjoy the course. I think a lot of people who attend come away with more then they had before attending.

But it's a Training course. Nothing less and nothing more.

The course is a Leadership Course. It covers the skills needed for Team Development and all that good stuff.

It is supposed to be for everyone and everyone who attends should come away with ideas and knowledge about how they can get what they do a little better.

The Council President who might never have had any experience working in Scouting with youth or adults in Scouting will come away with tools needed to do his or her job a little better. The Den Leader will not return to the Den with 101 different craft ideas, but maybe will be able to work better with the other adults in the Pack a little better. The Sea Scouter is not going to learn how to sail, but hopefully will be able to see the strong and not so strong areas that the Quarterdeck needs to work on.

If an idiot attends Wood Badge? He will still be an idiot when he completes the course, only thing is that he will be an idiot with beads.

Our organization and Scouting as a world wide movement depends on a lot of different people doing a lot of different jobs. Sure the people involved with the program and working with the youth are the most visible and the program is where the rubber meets the road. Still there are a lot of Scouter's who work really hard for Scouting, without ever working with the youth, they do work for the youth.

At this time in the Council I'm in, we as far as I know don't have any female Scoutmasters. I'm not sure why? Most of the Scoutmasters we do have have been Scoutmaster for a long time, very few have less than 15 years in!!

We also don't have any Hispanic Scoutmasters, mainly because we don't have a large Hispanic community. We also don't have any African-American Scoutmasters, even though we do have communities that are African-American. This is really sad, when the time comes for the youth we serve to go out into the real world chances are that they are going to work with and for females, African-Americans and people from the Hispanic Community.

Wood Badge has tried to increase our awareness of diversity and the need for it.

I'm unsure what the ManScout have to say about this? Or how it fits into the ManScout ideology?

Please don't try and judge the Wood Badge Course by the people who have taken the course. Each and everyone of them is hopefully trying to do their best. Is their best the benchmark for what your best is? Each of them has different skills, different up-bringing, different levels of education and different experiences than what you may have had.

I don't think I ever want to be given the title "Man Scout" I'd be far happier if people thought of me as a Scouter who was trying to do his best.

Eamonn.

[gwd-scouter]

"Yeah, there are definitely WomanScouts, prairie. Fairly easy to spot 'em. Fully adorned like the ManScout. Often fairly "drill sergeant" in their demeanor... da aggressive female who is provin' herself in a man's world. Frequently found on district staff but occasionally as female SM's, though that's more rare."

 

------

 

Hmmm... Yeah, I do have knots on my shirt, so I guess that fits fully adorned.

 

"Drill sergeant" does not describe me, but I would say I am a bit aggressive, though I prefer the word assertive (funny how those words are rarely heard when referring to a man's demeanor - sorry, I digress). I admit that early on as a new SM I had a good bit of "proving" to do in the men's club, but I've gotten over that.

 

Have worked on District staff and still help with training.

 

I am a Scoutmaster.

 

Yep, guess I'm a WomanScout.

[Beavah]

Yah, gwd, but yeh missed the tell-all. How much of Scoutin' is about you, vs. how much is about da kids. The Woman- or Man-Scout, it's about them. Dat's the reason for the adornment/"adult advancement", the wantin' to prove themselves in a man's world, the aggressive, and the reason why district service is more important, eh?

 

Women scouters have talent and skills and love working with the kids to help them grow. They talk about kids all the time, and therefore prefer unit level service. They don't have any need to prove themselves in the woods; they are comfortable with their own abilities and talents as women in an outdoor program.

 

Yeh can usually tell da difference in less than 5 minutes.

 

 

[Gold Winger]

"Women scouters have talent and skills and love working with the kids to help them grow."

 

Don't know about that. Most women scouters that I know have a hard time letting go and letting boys be boys. When fathers interfere, they are usually trying to skirt the rules for advancement or permission slip deadlines. Mothers are the ones who rush to their child's defense when he has broken a rule and has the explanation of why the rule was broken and how it is unfair to "punish" their child.

 

Just my observations. I'm not a sociologist and I never played one TV but maybe I could get a grant to study this.

 

Of course, now I've offended half of this forum.

[Beavah]

Don't know about that. Most women scouters that I know have a hard time letting go and letting boys be boys. When fathers interfere, they are usually trying to skirt the rules for advancement or permission slip deadlines. Mothers are the ones who rush to their child's defense when he has broken a rule and has the explanation of why the rule was broken and how it is unfair to "punish" their child.

 

:)

 

Yah, GW, those ain't Scouts or Scouters at all, eh? Those are just helicoper mommies and daddies.

 

 

[Lisabob]

GW< sure there are some of those folks out there but I've noticed that it has surprisingly little to do with gender! Some of the worst offenders I've met in this dept. are dads. I know one guy who has three sons, two of whom are Eagles. Not one of those boys is allowed to go on a camp out unless dad goes too. And when he goes, he appears to be incapable of leaving them alone to do their own thing. They're super-nice kids and all but I'm not sure who really earned that Eagle badge. Go figure.

[CrewMomma]

I still laugh at one of the new Fathers in the Troop that is associated with my Crew. The one I am thinking about hiked in with a "camping toilet" for his young son.

 

Hmmm....

 

 

I'm a Mom, I don't hover, I am not a "drill Sargent".

I am a Associate Adviser on a Crew.

 

Glad I can beat out some of the biased opinions.

( I leave my Diamonds at home with my husband when I am hiking! )

[eolesen]

We had a camping toilet for our pack once... consisted of a Home Depot bucket with a toilet seat. Beat the heck out of hovering over a cathole!

[CrewMomma]

eolesen

" We had a camping toilet for our pack once... consisted of a Home Depot bucket with a toilet seat. Beat the heck out of hovering over a cathole!"

 

We are building a cabin on our property where there isn't much water. We are using the same thing for a toilet system, with sawdust to cover up the "essentials". Compost toilets!