how much should we know about our parents?

[Eamonn]

" there was NEVER the suggestion that the person was involved in child sex abuse... i have no idea where you got that information from."

Maybe this is my bad?

However you posted

" i wonder if he should even be allowed to participate. recent changes to the Jessica Lundsford act"

 

"Gov. Jeb Bush signed legislation that beefs up Florida''s laws concerning child sex abusers as the father of nine-year-old Jessica Lundsford, for whom the law was named, looked on.

The Jessica Lunsford Act provides a minimum of 25 years in prison for those who prey on children under 12, and if they are released from prison, lifetime tracking by global positioning satellite."

http://crime.about.com/b/a/166938.htm

That is where I got the idea from -You brought it up!!

Eamonn.

 

 

 

[scottteng]

Maybe some investigation into the life expectancy of a child molester put into population at any prison would be helpful. Felons dislike them every bit as much as other citizens

 

I was trying to point this out as a credit in this person''s favor although a small credit. If I was still in cub scouts which I am not. I would be adamant that Tigers were free to go to council provided 4 X per year family camp if they wanted to camp but that the pack was not going to be involved if they wanted to do further camping. When my son was a tiger many moons ago we went to family camp the council we were in only offered 2X per year we camped one other time in someone''s back 40 and I vowed then and there not to camp without potable water and sanitary facilities again.

This whole story is sad to me here is a boy that could be reached through the scouting program. My reading on the adult may be a little different than the rest I see a guy who has had his hard knocks but he cares enough about the kid to ask his P.O. for permission to take the kid camping. I don''t think most in his shoes would do that.

[JeffD]

That is where I got the idea from -You brought it up!!

Eamonn.

 

But like you said - "I''''d be very careful about quoting acts and laws without having got the advise of people who really know what they are talking about."

 

part of the lunsford law has a moral turpitude clause which does not allow those convicted of felonies from being on school grounds in certain situations. this applies even to delivery people and other workers contracted by the county. our meeting place is a school and their rules would trump anything we have (for instance - we cannot do whittling chip at a den meeting since you cannot bring knives to school). i was wondering if a parent who is a felon and convicted of a crime involving moral turpitude (the drug charge and robbery conviction would fall into this and i believe the domestic violence would too). part of the confusion is that jessica lunsford was killed in my state. there is also a federal law with the same name. that is the reason i didnt know if all of it was national or just state.

 

i just want people to know the correct arrest and charge information - sorry for my rambling

 

 

*****complete side note - please skip if you want to stay on topic**** i have much of my knowledge of this from my wife who was working with this locally with the jessicas law. there are local laws which state a sexual predator cannot live within 1000'' of a school or day care. the loophole in this law is that the sexual predator must be under probation for this to be enforced. we had a man that raped a girl between the ages of 12 and 14 with violence. becuase he was not under probation - he was allowed to live across the street from a school and there is nothing that could be done when he sat in his back yard and talked to the little kids who were walking to school.

[JeffD]

scotteng - i agree with your statement. this kid does need scouting. we have no problems with mom taking him on the camp outs.

 

my latest problem is after explaining the district view and the camping restriction - he became very combattive and argumentative with me.. saying that I "didn't own the campground" and its "public property and he can go there is he chooses". like many here - we don't want confrontation and strife in an event that should be fun for all involved. from the way he was talking to me - i am hoping this will all be a non-event and nobody will have issues.

 

honestly - i applaud him for wanting to be an active and hopefully positive part in his kids life. the loser in this is not us or them - it will always be the scout.

 

(This message has been edited by JeffD)

[Beavah]

we don''t want confrontation and strife in an event that should be fun for all involved

 

Yeh may not want it, lad, but you''d best Be Prepared for it.

 

Alert the park rangers ahead of time of the potential for needing assistance. If you''ve got a parent in law enforcement who can come along on the campout, I''d ask him/her nicely to do so. Have a strategy in place for removin'' the boy from the scene and notifying the real parent/guardian. Have in your own mind some strategies for defusing confrontational behavior.

 

Yeh haven''t mentioned that you''ve done it, but I assume you have - talk to the real parent/guardian of the boy for instructions.

 

Beavah

 

[John-in-KC]

JeffD,

 

See what Beavah said up above? Follow it. I would add... ask around and see if there is a Scouter who has a valid commission as law enforcement for your home jurisdiction and for your destination jurisdiction. You may want him/her there no matter what!

 

Input from the boys'' legal parents is vital, and soonest. That is simply reiterating what others have already said.

 

 

[Aquila calva]

A few years ago a group of Webelos crossed over from our feeder pack. One of the Webelos was the son of divorced parents. He was a nice kid, but not all that interested in doing outdoor activities. His Mom said that his Dad would come on campouts occasionally to be with him. Other adult leaders thought that was fine. The Dad seemed nice enough and was cooperative. Long story short.after a couple of campouts the SM started to get complaints from parents that this Dad was smoking in front of the scouts, and was sitting around the campfire with the scouts explaining how to hot-wire cars.

 

SM suggested that we would watch this guy carefully on outings. Trained, active adults started to decline going on campouts saying they were in scouts to work with the scouts not to watch out for other adults. SM told the Dad he was no longer welcome on campouts. His son stayed on for awhile but couldnt come to scout meetings because it was the same night as his family counseling session. There was one accusation, late in all of this, that the Dad was a convicted felon. He was already out of the picture and this was never confirmed. Since then I have asked more questions of new parents.

 

Going on a troop campout with a known convicted felon, and a violent one at that, is not a good idea. If I was in your shoes, I would say No way!

 

[JeffD]

our campout was canceled and 56 people had to be informed of this. the family even told the leader who informed them that they would show up to the site anyway and sue everybody if anyone from the pack was there. (i guess everyone earns a law degree in prison)

 

i have had some parents tell me that they will quit the pack or not attend events if this parent can show up.

 

3 leaders have already decided they dont want to deal with this parent and have left the pack. even though council and national are involved - i feel they dont realize how fast things are deteriorating.

 

it seems that the law is on their side in that you cannot tell someone that they cannot attend a campout - but they can attend a pack/den meeting.

 

threatening comments were made to me - and i didnt like the very aggressive tone towards me and my wife didnt like getting some strange phone calls either. these were even done to a district executive, and from what i have been told - they were likely worse than what i was exposed to.

 

his probation officer isnt to thrilled that he is causing all this trouble - but i dont think its enough to violate the 10 years of probation this person is under.

 

yes, the council is involved, as is national, and i am still waiting on them as i have been told to hold tight. meanwhile i wonder how many more scouts/leaders/volunteers/good parents i will lose. i really feel sad at all of the trouble this one family has caused.. and this person is not even the father/ step father to the boy. he is simply the boyfriend of his mom.

 

God forbid a scout is held upside down while getting bobcat - and your butt could be thrown in a sling for that - but lets make sure we dont discriminate and allow a convicted felon on probation with several drug arrests, strong arm robbery arrests, domestic violence charges, who has made threatening remarks to leaders and district executives, around our kids. something is wrong here

[Aquila calva]

and sue everybody if anyone from the pack was there.

 

threatening comments were made to me

 

Dear Jeff,

 

You are dealing with an abuser and a severely dysfunctional family. You owe this abuser nothing and you owe this family nothing more than you have already tried to provide, a safe scouting program. Its time to bring the abuse to a halt in your life and the life of the pack.

 

Send the mom a certified letter telling her that her son is no longer a member of the Pack. No excuses, no lengthy explanation. This family is no longer a part of the Pack. Period. End of discussion.

 

Since you are the Committee Chair the only persons who can overrule you on this are the Chartered Organization Representative and/or the Institutional Head. If they DO overrule you on this then submit your resignation and move to a different Pack yourself. This is a very sick situation.

 

From what you posted in your last comments, you need to get that family out of the pack.

 

 

[Lisabob]

I'm in complete agreement with Aquila Calva that this family needs to be removed from your pack, and it is a very rare thing that I'd ever support removing a boy from a unit. But, the letter needs to come from the institutional head of your charter organization (CO) - NOT FROM YOU JeffD. The CO has the ultimate say-so in terms of who may be a member of their pack. You, as a leader, do not. (Nor does your council, whose incentive is to enroll as many boys as possible in scouting.) In reality, this may mean that you have to find out who the Institutional Head of your CO is and tell him or her what to do because they may be clueless to the point that they barely know they charter your pack. Yet, this is still their responsibility - not Council's and not National's. And if you wait for National to act, well you might as well wait for the cow to jump over the moon.

 

While you're at it, document in writing everything that's going on and it might not be a bad idea to make sure the probation officer is well aware of the threats you are receiving.

[Joni4TA]

Document everything!

 

I don't have any other advice - what has already been given is plenty. The group of people causing the issue are hopefully full of hot air, and after their initial blow-ups will hopefully fade into the woodwork and never surface again. If they plan on pursuing anything (especially a lawsuit), so be it!

 

The BSA is a private org. and as long as things are done according to the BSA policy there is no leg for a contender to stand on for their alleged lawsuit.

 

Good luck & keep us posted

[Joni4TA]

P.S. Just wanted to clear something up about writing letters to parole officers and "vouching" for a parolee.

 

My ex-husband was a parolee. He got out of state prison and within a couple months sought visitation with our son.

 

In order for him to have the court-ordered visitation with our son at the time, I had to write a letter to his parole officer with my contact information, where my Ex-H was going to meet me, etc. I lived in a different county than my EX.

 

I wasn't vouching for him for anything other than informing the Parole Officer of a legitimate reason why my Ex would have to leave the county of his jurisdiction. Also, because of the distance between counties, my Ex planned to stay overnight two nights and had to provide the location, contact numbers, and receipt, for proof of where he was planning on staying. Again, not a voucher, just a formality - a way for the parole officer to keep track of the parolee.

 

Interestingly enough, over the weekend, my Ex ended up working on our son's pinewood derby car with him, and taking our son to his Pack's Pinewood Derby. My son took 1st place! They had an excellent time, and our boy was beaming from ear to ear. He hadn't seen his father in over 3 years at the time.

 

I know that ALL parolees are not bad news in the father kingdom. My Ex would have been OK with not being able to attend an overnight or something where others felt uncomfortable because of his record, though.

 

And the last thing my Ex would have wanted was legal attention being drawn to him (lawsuit), etc.! That one baffles me on your case, which is why I want to believe they are full of bologna and just spouting off at the mouth in anger!

[eolesen]

I hate to see examples where the boy is being punished for having a mom with poor judgement... This isn't even the father or a step-father we're discussing -- it's the current model year boy-toy...

 

Boys like this are exactly the type of boys who NEED the influence of Scouting, so I'd look for a reasonable compromise -- make it clear that while the boyfriend who has no legal standing are not permitted, the boy and his mom are welcome to participate. That gives her the out to withdraw her son, but also gives her the chance to let the son benefit from the program.

 

Chances are, boy-toy will wind up in jail again, so it might be a moot point.

[JeffD]

i think we have a resolution....

 

letter from council states the pseudo-step-dad must NOT participate in or attend any scouting meetings, activities or other pack functions.

 

violation is an immediate removal of the son from scouting.

 

our parents are more at ease

the boys remain in scouting and get a great scouting experience

this dad can do all the camping/fishing/hiking he wants with the rest of his family - just not on pack time.

 

i also convinced the 3 leaders to come back to the pack. their roles are changed slightly - as are their attitudes - but i think its a good thing overall.

 

its something else what can happen in a week in the life of a pack

[Gold Winger]

I always judge people by their behavior NOW. Allowing him to go camping with the Pack and interact with regular people may have been good for him and helped him realize that there were benefits to staying out of jail.

 

If it was my pack I apply the same rules that I apply with anyone. Behave yourself and your welcome to come. I know many adults without records that I don't want along on campouts. For example the fellow who wants to turn every conversation into a political rant. Not a discussion because you're never allowed to express a viewpoint without him yelling "that's horse sh**!" Other than saying hello, few talk to him.

 

What would this guy have done on a campout? Knifed someone for the last 'Smore? Stolen wallets in the middle of the night?

 

His presence might have actually been good for all of the boys. "Mr. Brown, Jimmy said that you went to jail." "Yep, I did some really STUPID things and I paid the price. Jail is not a nice place."

 

Unfortunately, now we'll never know.