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kramr1 - I know you would like to make sure the boys in your Den get the best possible program. I also think that fighting for their right to have that program is a good thing. However, if your Pack leadership refuses to follow the BSA program & will not do anything about this leader, you need to fight for the one Scout who really depends on you - your son. Staying in a program that is as upside down & antagonistic as the one in your Bear Den can possibly sour him on Scouting completely.


You said you have been a Den Leader for 2 months already. Have you filled out an adult application, been approved by your Pack Committee, & registered with your council? Have you taken any training (at least on-line Fast Start & Youth Protection)? What did the "bad" leader say/do when you came with the meeting planned & newsletters in hand? If you are already an approved, registered Den Leader, then I really do not know what the Committee Member's problem was.


As has been suggested, contact your COR right away. The COR has the final say. I would tell him everything that has been going on, including the Committee Member's behaviour at your Den meeting.


You must prepare yourself, however, to pull your son out of a toxic environment if personality problems in your Pack Committee get in the way.


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First let me thank all of you for your comments and support. I just wish I had that same support from our CM and CC.

Lisabob-I think your first comment is correct. Our CC said that newsletter "hurt her feelings" and because of that she would remain. I really don't see what in there could hurt her feelings. Besides, she is a grown woman. She WILL get over it. It just seems to be a lousy excuse to keep a lousy leader.


As for the violations of policy, I was not given a copy so I really have no idea what was there. I did see the heading (it said violations of policy by "Jane Doe"). There were at least 20 items on that first page alone. Why not do something after the second or third violation? I don't understand why they let this go on so long.

And yes I am trained. I filled out the adult leader application last spring and was approved over the summer. I took the fast start training (a CD provided to me by our CM) and youth protection training right away. A couple of weeks ago I attended our councils "training extravaganza" and completed the new leader essentials and leader specific training and received my trained strip.

Do you think it would be a good idea to have some parents of past and currents scouts talk with the CM about this issue? One parent after picking up her son took the newletter with her. She came back in the room a few minutes later and explained that she was pleased because "she is mean, not very patient and yells at the boys all the time". Other parents have made similar comments to me in the past.

I really don't want to leave the pack. I have no problems with any other part of our scouting program. Just this leader. If I leave that will be one more boy she has driven away and more will probably leave also. What happens then? The pack will fold and the boys will end up being the one who lose out.

By the way, the boys(including my son) have no idea what is going on. We have managed to keep it out of view.


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lol Semper. This is not what I'd normally advise, but in this case, where there seems to be significant confusion, I'd advise going to the COR. This would help avoid the "he said-she said" issue that seems to be in play right now.


The other option, something the COR of a unit I served was willing to do, is to ask the COR if s(he) would be willing to meet with parents and leaders. That would cut down on the phone calls :)


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Join another pack. Units come and go and I wouldn't worry about how leaving the unit might affect it. The parents in the unit have the same options as you. What is important is that the boys receive a quality program. Not what unit they receive it from.


In fact, if you find another unit, invite the parents from your den to join you.



(OvO)(This message has been edited by MarkS)

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Rather than the COR, you may need to get the Committee Chair involved. The COR in many orgs is simply not actively involved in the Pack. ScoutNut is spot-on in saying that the CM has no real say in who the Den Leaders are. (please excuse the poor grammar, I'm tired)

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Dear kramr1,


First off - thanks for being a concerned scouter and trying to give your son and the other boys in the den a positive scouting experience.


Sounds like you have almost as big a problem with your CC as you do with the defective Den Leader.


How involved is your COR with the Pack? Our Charter Org and COR used to pretty much let our pack run autonomously - they'd sign off on any potential leaders that the CC was ok with.


Well, we had a bad situation erupt between the CM, some committee members and other leaders. It escalated to the point where our DE called a meeting of all leaders and the COR. The COR and the pastor of our Charter Org did NOT appreciate getting dragged into a "scout leader squabble", and did consider dropping the pack. (Which definitely would have ended the conflict).


If your COR is actively involved, and hopefully knows some of the pack leaders, their help may clear things up. Especially in light of your wishy washy CC. Are there other committee members who will take a stand on the issues with the problem Den Leader? The last thing you need is getting the COR involved, then everybody clams up - and you look like the troublemaker.


Good Luck!



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