Pinewood Derby Blues

[Mom-Scout 10]

As a parent I could get thoroughly discouraged by this Pinewood Derby stuff. As a leader I teeter on both sides of the rope. I'm a Webelos II leader so I feel the boys in my den are old enough and mature enough to complete a great deal of their own cars with a little help from their dads, especially since we've earned Craftsman, Engineer, Scientist and all of the other pins this could fall into (all we have left to earn out of the 20 are Showman and Readyman).

 

However, as the leader for the last three years I have watched the same boy win every Pinewood Derby race as the top winner in the den (which has been the length of time he's been with us). I could accept it if I KNEW he built most of his own car, but I know he didn't. He said so himself, even though his dad told another parent otherwise. I could accept the fact that he won against my son for the third year in a row if I didn't know that this year he altered the wheel base (even though the rules for OUR derby said it wasn't allowed). So now that the derby is over, the cars have been sequestered (however you spell that) and are at my house once again under lock and key, I know that the TOP winner for the Pack had only three wheels touching the track (even though the rules state all FOUR wheels must touch the track). My son is seriously disgusted because he knows in his heart of hearts he did MOST of the work on his own car and the other boys did not do hardly any of the work on their cars. I can't even begin to imagine the heartbreak he would have if he knew that the two top PACK winners disregarded the rules.

 

As a parent, how do I handle this? As a den leader, how do I handle this? I also know that one other boy did not build his car from the "BSA Grand Prix type car #17006 Pinewood Derby Kit" as specified in rule number ONE! Three boys, three of the top four winners in the pack (one from each level) and three boys broke three specific rules, one each (unless you count the one that says MOST of the work should be done by the boy). It seems very unfair. What could we possibly be teaching our children? I can't tell my son that he lost because others cheated. The reason he didn't get the trophy was because the others cheated or didn't follow the rules. At first I told him, "son, you have to know that you did your best. You worked honestly on your own car, you did your best you could and you will always feel good about that whereas the other boys, if they have a conscience (spelling) they will have to live with it" but he still gets heartbroken because he knows that is his last Pinewood derby and he didn't get a trophy again this year and he no longer has a chance to win a trophy. As a parent I want to scream, "YOU cheated again!" As a leader I feel I have a responsiblity to at the very least discuss fair play but how do I know I got the point across to each and every boy? I'm trying not to show bad sportsmanship but it is disgusting because if the boys didn't follow the rules this year, how do we know they will follow them in the future, or did they follow them in the past? The only reason I know the one boy only had three wheels touching the floor was because the boys dad told me. The only reason I know the ones wheelbase has been changed is because the boy told me his "dad had to fix the axle" before the race day.

[ilovmy3kidz 10]

the whole pwd makes you crazy! my son (wolf rank) actually won this year for den, 2nd in pack and is going on to district. i was totally shocked by this. my goal is to just not embarass ourselves. i had him do as much of the work as was appropriate for a child. i admit i did "fix" his wheels after he went to bed. (they were in very crooked so i put them in straight and superglued them.) i helped our pack with registration this year and we did have a few problems with "ilegal" cars. one used store bought wheels and a few others sanded them at an angle (tappered them). we had extra wheels on hand and those teams had to change their wheels before they raced. we did then have one dad who wanted his car back to fix it (even though it was legal with 3 wheels touching but it pulled to the side so it rubbed the whole way down the track and lost each time). he complained others were getting to "fix" their cars so why couldn't he. i had to explain his car was legal, others were illegal and that's why they had to be changed. this guy was so mad they took their car and left. i guess the whole point of this ramble is that there is always going to be those who cheat. if you have specific rules that state all 4 wheels must touch, that car should have been disqualified. as for proving who did the work, unless the child says he didn't do any of it there's not much you can do. we had the opposit problem with my son. since he won and we had done some sanding of the wheels (rules state you can sand to rough the finish, but not waffer thin them or angle or taper them) my son was upset and asked me if we cheated. fortunately our cm explained to him the difference and told him that we did not cheat.

[Its Me 10]

 

At our pack race all cars are checked for axle spacing before the race. Was an illegal car allowed to race? As far as all four wheels must be on the ground, even well built cars will have one of four wheels a little higher. There is some "Those are just sour grapes" in your post.

 

How do you handle this? Go to the cubmaster and tell him that you believe that illegal cars are being raced.

 

 

 

 

 

[SemperParatus 1]

Welcome to the forum. I think your frustration is shared by many fellow parents and scouters.

 

How do you stop cheating? I assume your pinewood had an inspection team at the time the cars are registered. It sounds like that group failed to ensure that all posted rules were followed. Perhaps, they just looked at weight and length, and did not complete a thorough inspection of the wheels, axles, etc. Their failure to catch the 'cheaters' was probably due to a combination of inattentiveness and lack of experience.

 

As you know, this is a good life lesson for your son. Now that he is older, he can know the dirty little secret that the world is full of cheaters and they often get away with it. Yes, it is soooo unfair, but it is reality. The fact that it happens in scouting where there is a sense of personal honor and character building is especially difficult to come to terms with. Nevertheless, it is a part of life and scouting is but a reflection of society.

 

Exposing the cheaters is a very tempting alternative. I am not sure why you have the cars sequestered, but the fact that certain cars have identifiable modifications that are in violation of the rules makes it a real possibility that the race results can be contested (although, in the case of the 3-wheel roller, the counterclaim could be made that you bent the axle while you had control of the cars post-race). However, contesting the race results and exposing the cheaters could do harm to your son's reputation with his friends and fellow scouts, as well as your's as a den leader. I would venture to say that most of the other pack parents and scouts have forgotten about pinewood by now and have moved on. Bringing up these issues will likely reflect on you and your son as 'poor sports', rather than on the cheaters, who probably have learned to claim 'victim status' very well by now.

 

Competition can be such a dirty business. Be glad you are moving on to boy scouts and can put the derby behind you. But, be forewarned, you will likely find folks in the troop that are always looking for ways to bend the rules to their advantage too. It is inescapable, and so you must teach your son that it is never about what others do or don't do, but rather have you been true to yourself.

 

 

 

[CA_Scouter 11]

Oh Boy, here we go again, more Pinewood Derby complaints. I've seen far too many posts on this very sorry subject. Parents doing all the work, trying to pass it off as their boy's work, parents arguing and fighting, etc...

 

Well at least you are teaching your boys how NOT to act. I guess that's good in a strange sort of way.

 

I think I'm going to ask the BSA for permission to market this subject as the next reality TV series... can you just imagine it? All the infighting, cheating, whining, backstabbing? Great stuff!

 

'Oh, little Billy is .003 out of tolerance on his wheelbase. Billy your FIRED!'

 

'Jimmy has used an illegal lubricant. Jimmy, you've been voted off the island!'

 

 

 

 

[knottyfox 10]

When my older son was in Cub Scouts, I found it very frustrating that he was competing against little Johnny Scouts dad! The 2nd, 3rd, 4th and 5th years he was a Cub Scout, I made it a point to ensure that all of the parents knew about all of the tricks! Oh boy was I mister popular!! Oh Well!

 

Boys Life did an article years ago suggesting how much help Dad should give at each stage. I am no longer able to find it

 

Years later, my son is an Eagle Scout with 4 palms. I am proud of any Scout who does what it takes to make this happen!

[Mom-Scout 10]

"At our pack race all cars are checked for axle spacing before the race. Was an illegal car allowed to race?"

 

Most definitely! All three illegal cars raced! That is how they won trophies. There was an inspection team, however I guess they didn't "inspect" very well.

 

"As far as all four wheels must be on the ground, even well built cars will have one of four wheels a little higher."

 

My son's car has all 4 wheels touching the ground and the one parent told me yesterday at work that he intentionally left only three wheels touching the ground for less friction.

 

 

"Exposing the cheaters is a very tempting alternative. I am not sure why you have the cars sequestered, but the fact that certain cars have identifiable modifications that are in violation of the rules makes it a real possibility that the race results can be contested (although, in the case of the 3-wheel roller, the counterclaim could be made that you bent the axle while you had control of the cars post-race)."

 

Ohhhhhhh....exposing the cheaters IS SO tempting, however... The reason the cars are sequestered at my house is because my other half is the assistant cub master and the cars will go to district and they can not have any modifications before district. The exception to the 3-wheel roller is that the dad told me himself at work.

 

"Bringing up these issues will likely reflect on you and your son as 'poor sports', rather than on the cheaters, who probably have learned to claim 'victim status' very well by now."

 

You are right...I know these issues would reflect on me (not my son) because I am the den leader and the parent of the "loser". My son, however has, sucked it up as "victim status" for the most part. He doesn't mention it unless somebody brings it up. However, I know if the other parents knew that they lost to a clear "cheater" there would be a lot of griping but we do this for the boys so I won't mention it. I'm tempted to go out and buy my son a trophy that has a plaque on it that says: "PWD honesty" Best car in den built by boy, following the rules" "2005" but I know that will just make him look back on it everytime he sees the trophy.

 

Thanks for listening to my complaint. I have another son that will start PWD racing next year and he does not take to losing very well, although he is young and it is hard for them to understand at that age, I guess I should start preparing him now because he will be a lot of work.

 

 

[ScoutNut 147]

Boy, I must say, after reading all of these different PWD posts, I am REALLY glad we don't have a District or Council PWD. It seems to up the ante considerably and make the majority of the boys (& their parents) miserable!

 

Our PWD's are fun! Sure, someone has to come in 1st, 2nd, & 3rd, but that is NOT the major reason for the event. Our boys have fun building their car with their folks. Then they have fun racing it all night long. Then they put it on their Webelos made car stand & have fun looking & remembering the race long after they are supposed to be asleep for the night!

 

We do have rules that are there to insure an even playing field. We inspect each car as a part of the weigh in & have asked that some cars get "adjusted", but they are few, far between, and mostly weight issues.

 

Pinewood Derbies should be fun. If they are NOT fun, why have them at all?

 

[anarchist 10]

WHy do all four wheels have to touch? why is wheel spacing critical? Why is winning so important...? PWD is about fun and chance and we have seen enough 'box cars' win to know chance has a lot to do with every heat...

 

we spend a lot of time in our pack letting the parents know that WE will know if its little johnnies' car or big john's...and there is less and less each year...we also spend a great deal of time with the boys letting them know it is about working with Mom and or Dad more than winning...and our rules: weight, length, ground clearance (for the track) and BSA wheels and axles...thats it....go have fun...

 

one of my proudest moments with my older son was when he was left out of the final heat at our PWD...about nine years ago...

he had qualified for the final(we thought there were two heats being run and it turned out the 'race officials' had put in the wrong car...the race was over and my little 'bear scout' was nearly in tears... the committee was not gonna run a new heat...

 

we spoke quietly for a few minutes about adults making mistakes just like kids and he just sucked it up wiped his eyes and told me that he would run again next year...

could I do any less?...I could have raised a stink...but his bravery and attitude put things in a different light...winning was not everything he had a Den best award and won his den heat...that was enough for this year...next year he would just make sure the adults did a better job...(and so would his dad)

 

learn, teach and move on... there is more to scouting than PWD...the regatta is more fun anyway!

[Katydid 10]

last year I was consoleing the boys who lost thier races and were eliminated from the pine wood Derby. One Senior Webelos said "That's o.k. now I can run it on the consolation track. We are going to see whose car flies off the end the farthest".

 

From the mouths of boys

 

an audible gasp was of course heard from the father

 

another boy said "I told my dad he made it wrong"

 

I long for the day when the Pinewood Derby is a track set up and the boys sticking their cars on whilly nilly and racing them down the track. No winner no loser just the fun of the race. Much like sandlot ball before Little Leagues came along.

[Fuzzy Bear 12]

You can do a PWD search here and find many others that have come this way bearing similar arguments/laments. The focus is generally on losing, cheating, and authorship. The feelings of being personally violated appear to be the greatest pain and the next is about how their son had been subjected to the travesties of competition in what they believed to be an event that should have transcended the mundane.

 

The reaction to such behaviors can be to do as they do or to expose them for their nature. One can also cling to the hope of an eventual righteous vindication which can help quiet the spirit. I don't believe there is an answer to this problem other than doing away with the PWD because of its' inherent openness to the ravages of competition. There is plenty of time to learn about those kinds of things and actually there is no escaping it. It is happening all around us all of the time and on all levels. Hardly a day goes by that some famous person is found out to be cheating in some way and in whatever domain they are competing. Some will do anything to win.

 

The BSA program, even on the CS level, is about character building. It doesn't say that people come to us because they have good character but the opposite. They come to the program to learn about good character. We should look for opportunities to teach sportsmanship, following a noble cause, and doing your best. When we consider if a person can win at the Pack, District, Council or World level, it is of little consequence if a person has rejected good character to obtain it. What they have won is the right to continue being of bad character. They can put all of their trophies on their mantle and gloat but if it was achieved through deceit, they will know it and many times the rest of us will too.

 

An important objective comes to us in the form of a question of finding out about who we are. We need to measure our physical, mental, emotional, and spiritual selves on a daily basis. We need to be honest about what we find out and what we can and cannot do. Sometimes we are simply mediocre but there will always be a place for us in society. Sometimes we do poorly but that is good insight and good personal knowledge. Sometimes we do well but no matter at what level we attain to, we need to know how we did what we did and add that to our list of who we are. We need to know if we can do better or if we want to spend the time or have the interest to do so. It should be our goal to know who we are and then to accept those qualities. It is our character or who we are inside that is important and it is there where we should direct our efforts and not on the lesser issues of life.

(This message has been edited by Fuzzy Bear)

[Its Me 10]

You guys that want to ban PWD because of its compettive nature are wrong.

 

I enjoy working with my boy building the cars. We spend a lot of time on it. As a den we start building the cars, rough shaping and sanding then leave it up the boys family to paint and get wheels on it. At the Pinewood derby I saw every one of my scouts there with their dad. Do you know why? Because the scout and dad worked on it together. The balance of work may differ from scout to scout but the derby does what it is supposed to do.

 

Positives of the PWD:

1) Brings boys out to a scouting event

2) Gets dads involved in a boy activity

3) Teaches the boys about tools

4) Teaches the boys about winning and losing.

 

Please do not destroy a working program. Leave the PWD as is.

 

 

 

[cajuncody 10]

Amen to that.

 

Now, about Dad built cars. My son's car always looks great. He puts many hours in sanding between adding paint coats. Did he cut it out? Nope, he still has all his fingers, however, he chose the design, transfered it to the block and helped hold the saw while cutting. It is a "fancy and difficult" design but he did most of the work. His father helped with the jig saw and the drummel. Does that make him a cheater? No, he has more time and work in it than his dad. He carries it room to room sanding it. He polishes his own axles and tires. He is a very artistic child. However, since he is a wolf and only 8 most people think he didn't help at all because the car looks really good. He is quick to tell you how much work he puts in it and it looks better than mine for the open race for adults. Don't take away his chance to be proud of something just because some other kids cars don't look as good or because some parents go overboard. Last year his car looked better than the former CM's car did, he found that very amusing.

Kristi

[Fuzzy Bear 12]

If I could stop the PWD with just a few words and end the rampant cheating that I have observed over the years, then I would do so at the top of whatever large building that I could find close at hand. There are plenty of other Dad and Lad projects in the CS and WS handbooks to spare to make happy all around. Let the merriment begin, let the PWD end!

 

FB

 

[ScoutNut 147]

The Pinewood Derby should NOT end.

 

However, like any other Pack or Den activity, if the boys are not having fun and the event causes more problems than benefits, then you need to re-think what you are doing. The Den or Pack should either adjust the activity so the boys ARE having fun or, if they can't or won't fix it, dump it altogether.

 

We went from a double elimination, crazy, cutthroat competition race, which had at least a couple of boys in tears & their parents fuming each year, to a race where all the boys race the whole evening & the emphasis is on fun not winning. It worked. No crying boys, no mad dads, no frustrated leaders.

 

Our PWD is now what any Scout activity should be - FUN!