Troop-owned kayak/canoe fleets

[AnniePoo 13]

Any troops out there own your own kayak and/or canoe fleets? We have a lot of paddlers in our pack, and a few of us are interested in getting a serious paddling program started when our scouts join the local Troop. We think we have enough contacts in the paddling community to get donations of seaworthy beginners vessels in good condition, and are curious about liability issues, insurance, etc. Families with their own kayaks or canoes would likely paddle their own boats. We'd paddle little lakes, little rivers, etc., not large lakes, cold water, or whitewater. Trailers would be available to haul and we'd follow stringent paddling safety practices, including having a couple of adults scout all trip areas before scouts are involved.

 

Any feedback would be helpful.

 

Thanks!

[ScoutNut 147]

I know of some Troops that have canoes, and use them quite a bit.

 

However, the decision to start a paddling program in the Troop is really not yours to make. It is up to ALL of the BOYS in the Troop to decide if that is something they are interested in. Then it is up to the Troop Committee as to how/if it is implemented.

 

I would wait until your boys are actually in the Troop and then approach the SM with an offer of assistance if the BOYS are interested.

[Beavah 205]

Hiya AnniePoo!

 

Glad to see another paddlin' enthusiast.

 

I've known several troops that maintained their own canoe fleet very successfully. I think there's a lot of upside to havin' your own gear - it makes it a lot easier to run trips! So you're more likely to get out, and you can go places where there isn't a livery.

 

Downside is yeh need good budgeting to keep the fleet up - money for replacin' PFDs and paddles and boats and trailer maintenance and registration and such. The units I've known have covered a lot of that cost by renting their fleet to other troops on weekends they weren't usin' it. That can be a great service for your district, and net you enough to keep the gear ship-shape.

 

Yeh have to be careful particularly with kayaks to get boats that are properly sized for the kids. Second-hand adult boats usually don't work well. Same with canoes, eh? Better to find stuff that's smaller and lighter that the kids can handle on their own. And of course, same with lifejackets and paddles!

 

I wouldn't be too shy of large lakes, cold water, and whitewater either, eh? Right now at age 11 your lads might not be ready for those things, but they grow fast. If your troop goes out paddlin' frequently, within a few short years those guys are goin' to be ready, willing, and able to tackle all of that and then some. Plan for that in terms of gear and gettin' adults training.

 

Property insurance for the equipment yeh typically run through your CO and make sure it's listed on their casualty and theft policies. For internal use, BSA liability insurance covers yeh just fine. Same for rentin' to BSA units (yeh should fill out a Unit Money-Earning Application). Rentin' outside da BSA gets trickier, dependin' on the state you're in. Yeh have to be careful about regulations for outfitters and the like, and check with your council. Worth checkin' everyone's auto policy for its terms on towing. Generally speakin', trailer accidents are covered under the towing auto's coverage, but it's worth lookin' at that closely. Yeh want to make sure yeh have property coverage in place in case yeh wipe out a trailer and all the boats on the highway.

 

Sounds like fun!

 

Beavah

 

[gcnphkr 11]

Our troop has about 16 canoes, although a couple need to be sent to the recyclers. We don't use them all the time. For example we did not use them at all last year but we have three or four outings planned for them this year.

 

Cold water and whitewater are not problems as long as the members are trained properly. Actually, cold water may be safer, the boys who can't seem to keep their canoe upright when it is warm do fine when the water is cold. We do stay in no wake zones on larger lakes and avoid areas with jetskis. Training for everyone includes Safe Swim and Safety Afloat, 3 hours of usage and safety training for the type of craft. Each float also should have adults with CPR training and rescue training for the type of craft. It is good to have multiple people with BSA Lifeguard. Any non-swimmers must be in a craft with a BSA Lifeguard. If you do whitewater then everyone will need to go to whitewater training.

 

Your council may require that you carry insurance, you need to check with them. The national policy provides secondary coverage.

 

Note, you are going into an existing troop with an existing culture which may not include paddling. Your scouts may need to do the paddling at a patrol level initially. Rocking the boat by forcing your love for paddling is not in your or the unit's best interests. It should not stop you, just be aware.

 

You imply that you are currently doing paddling activities as a pack. Unless they are council or district activities you are out of BSA guidelines. That does not bode well for future compliance.

[SSScout 1616]

Ditto jet526. Cubs are not included in Scout watercraft activities except as G2SS allows. But Boy Scouts...

Ordinarily, Canoeing has to wait for summer camp. So:

 

Recruit one or more experienced adults as Canoeing Merit Badge Counselors. Include that in your canoeing program. If the boys have mastered the Canoeing MB, they are ready for medium rivers and ripples. Real white water is another thing again. Canoe rescue practice can be done in the community pool, with advance arrangements. Ask to use the pool way before regular hours and make sure the boats are CLEAN before you enter the pool. (!!measure to assure the boats will fit thru the doors!!)Red Cross does this all the time and other Scout units use the pool in our community thusly. For this I recommend leaving the aluminum boats at home and only bring the ABS boats. Don't bump the tile!

We have a lake nearby that is good for paddling practice, but it is part of the county's water supply, so no swimming allowed (no swamping on purpose!)

 

As the boys get experience, plan an overnight trip.

It's all down hill er, stream.

 

 

[AnniePoo 13]

Thanks for the input, particularly about the liability issues. We're just trying to think ahead a bit. I obviously need to clarify that we do NOT have Cub Scout paddling outings. However, there are many families in the pack that enjoy paddling as a family, and we've taken many of our kids' friends paddling and camping on our family trips (never anything even remotely scout-related). We have kid-sized kayaks, and I have a pretty good idea of what kind we'd need. We have some good canoes also.

 

Yep, PFD's and paddles would be expensive, but we're already discussing how best we would handle the ongoing expense of boat maintenance and PFD/paddle replacement. I guess I figured that we'd loan equipment to other Troops, but heck, renting would be better! There's a great paddling shop in a nearby city, and they have staff available for training or guidance if we need it. I'm also a member of the local paddling club. There's a great lake nearby (shallow, small, calm) that I usually use as a paddling training ground before taking any novice on a river.

 

Although I'm a Cub Leader, I do realize that Troops should be boy-led. Indeed, my fellow Webelo I leader and I are getting the pack & Webelo camping program started again realizing that we need to train the boys to camp with increasing independence so they are ready for Boy Scout camping. Given the great level of interest for paddling in our Bears and Webelo I's, I guess I'm hoping to encourage (or convince) the boys that a paddling program would be a great, and let them run the show as much as possible. We're taking the Webelo I's (and pack as a whole) car camping with hopes that it will spark an interest in backpack camping either as Boy Scouts or on their own as they get older. Similarly, I hope they'll be interested in basic paddling at least at first, and will become interested later in more challenging paddling such as whitewater and sea kayaking. You just need to get that initial spark of interest in them, then hope they run with it.

 

Thanks again!

[Bob White 20]

Glad you are thinking ahead. Here are some other things besides the cost of gear and replacememht to consider.

 

How are you transporting these? Will you always have enough vehicles available to roof carry them? Will you always have a vehicle you need to pull a trailer?

Will you have enough vehicles for people and all the gear?

 

There is the annual trailer registration, the indivudual boat registration, the liability insurance, storage location.

 

I am not saying not to do it or that it cannot be done, but boat ownership is a big responsibility and not cheap even with small boats.

 

Remember the boat owners creed and the definition of a boat.

"The happiest day in a boat owner's life is the day he buys a boat and the day he sells it.

 

Boat; noun; a hole in the water you throw money into.

 

Mate BW

 

 

[packsaddle 753]

Amen to Bob White's hole-in-the-water thing. I maintain and administer a fleet of about 20 boats, about half are canoes. I use these for student activities but not scouts. My suggestions are based on this experience.

Before anyone sets foot in one of these craft, I require them to take one of the online boating safety courses that various states offer. And pass it. Most of the time, there is a practice exam that will tell you the score and then you just print that page for proof. As an option, there may be an official certification for a fee.

 

As for liability, I see state and federal regulations regarding pfd use, etc. The safety courses address most of these.

There is one other aspect that I think has not been mentioned.

 

If you accept a watercraft as a gift, you need to be careful about custody and ownership. Custody is a matter of storage and security. Ownership can be legally established and needs to be. If possible, you need to have each craft titled with the CO as the owner. If that isn't feasible, then a MSO and bill of sale can establish ownership for liability purposes. The reason for this is to protect the donor. Until the paperwork is done, unless legal ownership by the CO can be established, the craft could be considered a loan and the donor could be considered the owner long after the craft entered service to the troop.

[AnniePoo 13]

Very interesting about the ownership/custody issues. Liability issues would be my main concern. Me and the other leaders that are interested in this are so paranoid about safety with the scouts that I'm sure we'd go overboard (yeah, bad pun) with training, safety measures, safe transport of boats, etc. I think we'll be OK with transport with one family owning a 8-kayak trailer, as well as others families having other transport methods. Fortunately, in our state, registration of kayaks and canoes is optional, so that would save us a chunk of change.

 

[packsaddle 753]

As I discovered a long time ago, transport of a craft, even temporarily, from a state that doesn't require registration to a state that DOES...can bring unexpected complications due to unexpected paperwork. Be prepared.

[funscout 11]

Even though you aren't in need of a multi-canoe/kayak trailer at this time, you might want to think ahead to when you do need one. Our troop has a 7-place canoe trailer with boxes on each side that can hold all the paddles and PFDs. For security, the boxes have locks and there are vertical bars on each side of the trailer that lock the canoes onto the trailer as well. Our troop has gotten lots of use out of these canoes and some of them show it!

 

If you need to purchase new paddles and PFDs check around to see which stores in your area give a discount for scouts. A friend and I each got discounts on our kayaks by showing our scout membership card. In our area, Gander Mountain and Dick's Sporting Goods stores give a 10% discount to items that will be used in scouting.

 

Have fun on the water!

[eisely 13]

As a canoe enthusiast I will offer some advice as well. I think the liability and ownwership issues have been addressed well.

 

The question is what kind of canoe to get? Just because somebody offers you a gift does not mean you should accept it.

 

Avoid fiber glass canoes. They are heavy and consequently have less load carrying capacity.

 

Aluminum canoes are probably the most commonly owned canoes by scout units. They are relatively inexpensive and they can take a lot of abuse.

 

When I was a scout the aluminum canoes that then were relatively new products on the market had sealed flotation air tanks in the bow and stern. I have noticed that in more recent years these spaces are filled with plastic foam to provide the flotation. While this avoids the possibility of a tank developing a leak, the foam inevitably deteriorates. Before accepting an older aluminum canoe take it somewhere and swamp it to see what happens. I presume that the conditions I describe are repairable, but I have never attempted it. I was once offered such a canoe that spread styrofoam crumbs on the water. I refused it.

 

Storage and maintenance will be big problems. You must have PFDs and you have to have a way of drying them out after use and storing them properly so they won't deteriorate.

 

Have fun paddling.

[anarchist 10]

AnniePoo,

 

Having your own canoes is GREAT! We raised funds...lots of work and brought our own new boats.

I have to say that I disagree with BW...we have found it much more financially benefical and not a hole in the water that you just pour money into...

 

Our trailer is registered and tagged permanently (just once and not annually) in our state. And there is an annual tax on the trailer which we budget for.

 

We have had the trailer and canoes for four years now and we have spent a grand total of $400 for skid plates and $50.00 for a new tire for the trailer. The eight boats are used five or six times annually by the troop and two or three times per year for patrol activities. Accounting wise, we calculated that we "paid" for the boats and trailer before the 3rd year was over..using current canoe livery prices. Some of our dads repack the wheel bearings annually...so that's no cost.

 

We are lucky in that we are able to store the boats at various Scouters homes rather than at the Church or "out in public"...This is possible because we live in a transitional rural/suburban area and many of us have land enough or barns to "sequester" the boats. We lock down the trailer...I would not buy boats without a safe and secure place to store them.

 

For our fleet, our hulls are a mix of Old Town Royalex and Mad River triple link/polylink plastic (Mad river calls them "T-T" (Triple Tough)) To suppliment these boats we have 8 or 9 privately owned boats that we can borrow from our scouters as the need arises.

 

As has already been said avoid fiber glass, particularly if you are river trippers...

 

Now on PFD's -as a troop we do not own a single one... It was decided by the troop commitee that each scout taking part in boating activities would need to have his own PFD. That way we kept our dollar outlay lower, the drying, care and storage issues at "zero" and most important the scouts parents were then responcible to see that the coast guard approved PFD was actually sized for their scout and fitted properly. (this holds the same for use of the troop sail boat). Before the "boo bears" start in on the "fairness or unfairness" of forcing the boys to buy their own PFDs...class three coast guard approved PFD's can be had for $5.98 every fall at your local wal mart and not much more from various boating concerns...no biggie...that's the price of a big greasy mac meal...

 

think, plan, implement!

good luck...gotta get ready for our end of summer, flat water training weekend!

 

anarchist(This message has been edited by anarchist)

[packsaddle 753]

As long as Anarchist has mentioned pfd equipment and a couple of posters have mentioned boat construction, I will add my 2 cents. I have four glass and 8 plastic hulls. The glass ones are going on 30 years old now and still doing fine. They're no heavier than the plastic Old Town hulls I just bought this year. I expect to replace them eventually with more plastic but the durability of any material depends on the type of use (already mentioned) and the intensity of use. My canoes never see flowing water so they don't get the abuse that rocks and inexperience combine to dish out.

If I did take them on flowing water, I'd leave the glass ones on the trailer, as also mentioned before. But on the lake, the small keel and design of the glass ones make them faster and truer on track than the plastic hulls. There's always a trade-off. Your decision.

 

Also, I have recently purchased paddles for all the new canoes and some of the old ones. You should follow, as closely as possible, the guidelines for proper paddle length. If you need paddles that are 66 inches (or less in 6-inch increments), you can find them made by Carlisle Paddle Company: t-grip, aluminum shaft, plastic blade. I got the long ones at a local sporting goods supplier for $20 each. They also had the shorter ones in several different lengths for the same price. If you can find a similar deal it will save you the shipping charges. I haven't found any other decent paddles for less cost.

If you can't find a local supplier for that price, Campmor has paddles up to 60 inches for the same price and only an $8 (appproximately) shipping charge for all you can order. I ordered a pile from them until I discovered the local supplier.

[eisely 13]

Responding to PackSaddle's post:

 

When fiber glass as a material for making canoes first came out, it was a lighter weight material. The newer fiber glass canoes I have encountered are all made by Coleman and they are truly heavy. DO NOT BUY A COLEMAN CANOE.

 

Coleman makes great lanterns and stoves, but they should get out of the canoe business. Their canoes are definitely heavier than similar sized canoes of either aluminum or the other plastic molded canoes. I refer to "plastic" but this I mean this generically. I too have a Royalex Oldtown and a Mad River canoe. If money were no object I would recommend such canoes rather than aluminum.

 

Another reason for not buying Coleman canoes is the location of the flotation tanks. The last time I was in a Coleman was at a scouting event in 2001 if I recall correctly. The newer Colemans had the flotation tanks underneath the seats, making it very difficult, if not impossible, to take a proper kneeling position in the canoes. So this is something else to consider when looking at any canoe.

 

I remember the first time I saw a plastic canoe. That was in 1993 and it had been many years that I had even thought about canoes and was completely unaware of the use of these materials for canoes. I asked the outfitter where the flotation tanks were since there weren't any. He kindly pointed out that the primary layer was essentially a foam layer with air bubbles entrained in the material so the whole thing was less dense than water. Nice.