Have you ever noticed.....???

[Beavah 205]

Yah, no question, eh? If B-P were around now, he'd adopt some form of the camo BDU as the uniform for scouting. Practical field-wear, speaks to adventure & service, useful for tracking games, etc. Meaningful but understated rank and position insignia. Boys wanted to wear B-P's adventure uniform.

 

Esprit de corps comes from participation - from the bond that is forged through shared adventure, hardship, and victory. The only reason a uniform gets associated with spirit in people's minds is if it's what they happened to be wearin' during their shared adventure.

 

Current BSA uniform wouldn't meet B-P's test, nor the "worn for adventure" test. So the extent to which it's an "esprit de corps" thing is only true for us adults who remember it as an adventure uniform from our youth long ago, or us adults who served in the military who associate that uniform with esprit de corps, and want/believe we can make Scouting have that "feel".

 

I go back to "What does the uniform actually mean to our kids?" Uniform Method is for them, after all. It should speak to them of spirit and adventure, not of obedience.

 

I worry a lot that the kids' answer might be "It's a dumb thing some fat adults make us do because they like to show off and parade around rememberin' their glory days in the '50s." When I ask 'em, anyway, I get some version of that answer a lot more than I hear "It shows espirt de corps with the worldwide scouting movement."

 

I think da real reason we hear so many uniformin' excuses is that they're just polite ways of sayin' "this program piece just isn't workin' for us." It's a signal that we have to do a better job/approach things differently, not that there's somethin' wrong with them.

 

National's move to dump da Oscars in favor of active, adventurous field-wear with understated badges is IMO a good move in the right direction, though it will no doubt upset da dress-and-frills uniformin' crowd.

 

But MO doesn't count, eh? It's what the kids think that matters.

 

Beavah

[Hunt 11]

"...That the same parents who don't mind having their sons in half (or less) of a Scout Uniform never apply the same logic to their son's soccer or baseball or football uniforms?"

 

Well, not always, actually. When my son played rec baseball, they had uniforms, but it was not unusual to see a boy in non-uniform pants, socks, or hat--(never a problem with the shirt). Neither the coaches nor the umpires made an issue of this--although they did ensure that the boys had proper equipment (ie, no playing in shorts). On the other hand, when my daughter played travel soccer, both the coaches and the refs were pretty strict about standard uniforming.

 

Is a Boy Scout troop more like a rec team or a travel team? Particular units may vary substantially in how they approach things, and attitude toward uniform is probably part of the mix. At one end of the spectrum, we hear about troop with highly uniformed honor patrols, everybody wearing the campaign hat, "Class A" at all times, even when camping, etc.--those troops may also be more intense about other elements of Scouting, such as OA participation, advancement, jamborees, etc. At the other end of the spectrum might be a troop with a lot of casual scouts, with the main focus being on camping and other outings. Such a troop may also have a more casual attitude about uniforms. I think there's room for troops at various places along this spectrum, and boys will gravitate to the unit that fits them. We may disagree about the point at which the unit's activities (and uniforming) are too far from the center to be acceptable as a good Scouting experience, of course.

[Gunny2862 11]

... That the really "financially poor" seem to properly wear and take good care of whatever shred of uniform they were able to get, while the "rich" kids often don't care if they look like slobs...

 

...and then the most well off child in the group comes rolling in, wait for it.... in (Ugly and ill fitting)Grey sweatpants and the Short sleeve Scout shirt!(Not coming from any sporting activity!)

And the poorest - lives with his Grandmother- with several other surviving siblings, you can't pry what uniforms we've been able to get him off of him.

 

AArgh!

[hot_foot_eagle 13]

I'm going to go out on a limb and just say that the BSA is a paramilitary organization and what we have to come to terms with is whether or not that's what we want it to be.

 

When we say paramilitay, it conjures all sorts of images of paranoid gun-toting radicals bent on anarchy, but that's not what I'm talking about. I'm just saying that some aspects of scouting resemble the military by design.

 

The military calls their small units squads that are part of a larger platoon. Looks like patrols and troops to me. Anyone else notice how much the troop flag looks like a U.S. Cavalry guidon? Nessmuk pointed out several other good examples.

 

If I were starting BSA from scratch, the military is where I'd go for proven methods too. And look - the leadership model comes with some pretty useful (and cool) equipment and regalia, too!

 

I said all that to say this: The military leadership model works. Military equipment and uniforms work. But just because we are LIKE the military in some ways doesn't mean that we are teaching our boys to be soldiers. On the other hand, denying that we have anything in common with the military or suggesting that we can or should completely divorce ourselves from adapted military methods is a bit disingenuous.

 

Do we want our boys to be managers or leaders?

 

 

 

 

 

[Miki101 14]

Nessmuck writes:

 

"If you want to go look at Seton's Woodcraft Indians or Beard's Daniel Boone scene, you will even get hint of militarism there."

 

Ummmm...I'm curious. Would you please expand upon the militarism that you see in Seton's Woodcraft Indians and Beard's Sons of Daniel Boone/Boy Pioneers of America?

 

That would be a complete 180 from their actual views.

 

David C. Scott

 

[Nessmuk 10]

Seton - Let's start with "The Book of Woodcraft" the chapter on "Games for Camp'

- "Arrow Fight"

- "Hostile Spy"

- "Scout Messenger"

- "A challenge for Scout messenger"

- "Apache Relay Race"

 

And then there's the chapter on campfire stories and Indian character - which very much revolves around character traits exhibited by those in combat..

 

The section on Indian Dog Soldiers - thsoe responsibel for maintaining order and peace in the camp (and not by their diplomatic skills either)..

 

Bottom line with Seton - He loved and based his philosophy on Indian life -- and Indians loved war - to their very end sadly..

 

I can think of a few Beard refs, but my Beard books are boxed up...I will go to Pine Tree and see what's there..

 

Later

 

Oh yeah -- It's Nessmuk (no "c") thanks.. Look him up too.

[scoutldr 732]

In the military, the leaders (POR) are not "elected" by their peers. They are selected based on experience, expertise, rank, and skill. How ridiculous would it be for the new E-2 recruit fresh out of boot camp to be "elected" Captain of the ship and handed his Command at Sea pin at a ceremony? While the 50 year old Naval Academy grad gets elected "Laundry Officer", because he needs a POR for promotion to Admiral. Hmmmmm....in Scouting a 12 year old Second Class can be elected SPL, then we expect him to "lead" the troop...including the 17 year old Life Scouts. As Rachael Ray would say, "how dumb is THAT?"

 

(Before someone jumps in with a "W" analogy, I'm just talking about the uniformed military...not the civilian govt leaders)

[Miki101 14]

Well Nessmuk,

 

It seems that I have hit a nerve with you and there's no need to get snotty. It also occurs to me that if Seton was so militaristic in his views (outside of his spooring and hunting games) that he should have been very sympathetic to the US entry into WWI. He was not. He was also booted as the Chief Scout for being a pacifist and fighting James E. West every step of the way when West was pushing the BSA towards war service...apart from hating the "militaristic BSA terms of "patrols" and "first class," etc.

 

By the way, George Washington Sears (Nessmuk) was a brilliant woodsman. Perhaps you should be a tad more respectful of your namesake when answering questions posed you in a honest way. That's kinda the way that this forum works. If you care to delve deeper into the question, I would be most pleased.

 

David C. Scott

 

 

 

 

 

[FScouter 24]

"... in Scouting a 12 year old Second Class can be elected SPL, then we expect him to "lead" the troop...including the 17 year old Life Scouts. As Rachael Ray would say, "how dumb is THAT?" "

 

No, we expect the Scoutmaster to train him in leadership. Scouting is a good and safe place for a boy to learn leadership skills, making lots of mistakes and poor judgements along the way.

[FScouter 24]

"-- and Indians loved war - to their very end sadly."

 

Hmmm... how to put this. Indians loved war to their death? Maybe you meant Indians loved defending themselves to their death? Invaders came into their land and initiated a 300 year extermination program. What's to love about that?

[Gunny2862 11]

Back to uniform costs...

When I went to boot camp a portion of my pay during basic training was withheld to pay for my initial issue.(Free issue, it didn't come out of my wallet because it never went into it!) Each following year my uniform allowance would cover two complete(maybe another partial depending on prices and when we are talking about) utility uniform with its' required accessories, less if you bought boots. The allowance never covered what I actually needed.

There was not a program, that we could ever use, to exchange worn out uniforms for new, unless you were deployed with a rather large logistics support package - which usually meant that they sent a cash sales annex and you were again stuck paying for them out of pocket.

Now the Reserves could exchange, but the item had to be trashed - you couldn't have been seen wearing the thing prior to it being gradually worn to that point.

 

Frankly I'd love to wear a tan Creighton as my uniform shirt WITH or without military creases(I still have some in my "Memories" box)- or one of the many police uniform Short Sleeve shirts, . Much better quality and priced the same or less.

[John-in-KC 311]

Gunny,

 

You will neither be the first nor the last Scouter who takes a Marine Creighton khaki shirt, embroiders Boy Scouts of America across the right breast pocket top, and wears it.

 

Beavah posts of 7/7 and 7/10 hit key points: The uniform needs to be of fabrics suitable to the outdoors, of construction suitable to the outdoors, and of finish suitable mostly to the outdoors but somewhat to the troop meeting.

 

Of course, I've been told the markup on Supply Corporation items is big because the profits fund the National Office.

 

We've stated this before: We need a National uniform design contest. Let college age Venturers who are in design arts be the contestants. If there are any Scouts who have ambitions to recreational outfitting design, let them compete as well.

 

As for me, I'd like to see 3-4 climatic ranges developed against:

- -20 to +30 F

- 30 to 70 F

- 70 up to 120 or above

- Wet weather support for all 3 above.

 

Have a juried panel from the recreational equipment industry evaluate the candidate uniforms. The top 5 in each category get made up for field test at Philmont, Double H, Northern Tier, and Sea Base.

 

The winners get serious $$$$ and careers in recreational equipment supporting Scouting.

 

The switchbacks are an early first start in getting it right!

 

Last night I saw the tan Activity quick-dry button shirt. Sure beat the DLR thing I was wearing.

[hot_foot_eagle 13]

How do equipment designs happen now?

 

I can remember being part of a "focus group," for lack of a better term, when I was a scout just prior to the De La Renta uniform becoming available. My troop was asked opinion s about epaulets, cargo pockets, colors, and I can't remember what else. I wonder if we actually had some impact back then.

 

I do like the idea of a design contest. There are probably a lot of great ideas out there including some that we haven't dreamed of yet.

[Gunny2862 11]

Hear, Hear!

[ASM857 10]

In or Troop we take pride in the uniform,we always travel to and from outings in full uniform and we have a field uniform of a troop T-shirt for working at camp. The kids never complain and actually wear it to school functions. I believe the uniform shows the pride you have in yourself and the troop, it's not a military thing,its self respect.

 

YIS

Doug