Troop Uniforms

[Kudu 186]

So, if you're going to "make your own Troop uniform" when are you also going to write your own handbook?

 

I already offer a free 2,000 page supplement, just ask FScouter!

 

You're already doing away with part of the program, might as well come up with your own.

 

Speaking of better handbooks, try William Hillcourt's 3rd Edition of Handbook for Scoutmasters. This two volume masterpiece by the man who brought the Patrol Method to the BSA from Denmark is a thousand pages longer than the current Scoutmaster Handbook (even counting all of the current edition's pictures, blank pages and index)! As Hillcourt would point out, if you don't wear the Uniform while camping, it is you who is doing away with a significant part of the program.

 

Very early in his career Hillcourt even admonished James West and West's senior staff for not wearing their Scout Uniforms every day at National Headquarters. One thing is certain, if the corporate BSA executives pulling down six-figure incomes in Irving Texas had to wear the "field uniform" every day, we would have a useable uniform.

 

At any rate, if one of the biggest outdoor youth programs in the world is not interested in marketing outdoor clothing, then indeed you "might as well come up with your own." There aren't any rules against it!

 

a member of the Boy Scouts of America and show it proudly when I don the uniform.

 

The problem with the BSA Uniform is that (in common with a flag) its only use is as a symbol. It is worthless in implementing the Patrol Method as the creator of the Patrol Method intended. The place to show your pride is in the great outdoors, not while your are parlour Scouting.

 

without the Boy Scouts of America, would there be Troop XXX?

 

Well, we are working on an option for Troop XXX, check back with me later in 2006 :-/

 

Join the program, or don't.

 

That kind of unScout-like taunt just doesn't have the same sting if you can't cite a rule violation, does it? :-/

 

Kudu

 

 

[FScouter 24]

"Once you purchase a badge, you own the physical badge." "So in short, there's nothing wrong with you sewing patches on your jeans. You own the patches."

 

No, you are wrong. Insignia is the property of BSA. You purchase only the right to use the badge in the manner permitted by BSA. See the Insignia Guide.

[Beavah 205]

Insignia is the property of BSA. You purchase only the right to use the badge in the manner permitted by BSA. See the Insignia Guide.

 

Sorry, der, FScouter, but I'm afraid you are da one who is mistaken.

 

The controlling law here is not a BSA publication, it's the Uniform Commercial Code and the Trademark and Copyright Acts. Oh, yah, and the right of the people to be secure in their persons and property.

 

Isn't citizenship in a freedom-loving democracy a pain?

[Kudu 186]

Eamonn writes:

 

Clause 9 states that all badges and Insignia shall remain the property of the BSA

 

Beavah, believe it or not, Eamonn and FScouter are correct about the BSA's claim. Mike Walton once wrote a first-hand account of his participation in a raid to seize BSA uniforms, publications, and badges from someone who had used his position in Scouting to commit criminal acts. However, I suspect that such warrants are only issued in situations where the "controlling law" is not likely to be contested by the defendant.

 

clause 12 talks about authorization, saying that the national office shall have the sole right to authorize the use of insignia.

 

I'm sure that alarm bells are ringing in National Headquarters as we speak, but currently there appears to be no rule that prohibits sewing BSA badges on "unauthorized" Troop Uniforms.

 

The best thing to do is get a copy of both the Charter and Bylaws of the Boy Scouts of America and a copy of the Rules and Regulations of the Boy Scouts of America (57-491 and 57-492) They used to cost $1.50 each and you can order them from the National Office.

 

I believe that these publications are now restricted, but they sometimes do slip through at local Scout Shops. Has anyone actually ordered a copy in the last few years?

 

That the only Official Uniform is the one you buy from the BSA or from stores that are authorized to sell BSA uniforms

 

Yes, but you only need an Official Uniform for National Jamborees, and probably most local Council JLT courses.

 

and that the BSA owns all the badges and insignia, so as such they can say where they can be worn.

 

Yes, but they don't say, do they?

 

Uniform discussions always revolve around how the official Uniform can be worn. Nobody has ever thought of just skipping the hassle and buying their own generic uniforms from manufacturers.

 

I don't think that anyone will ever come up with the perfect uniform.

 

Breathable nylon works for just about everything but bushwhacking through thorn bushes :-/

 

What might be fine and dandy in Florida isn't going to be so great in Wyoming.

 

The advantage of Troop Uniforms is that you can adapt them to your local environment. The important thing is to get out and experiment outdoors, where all true Scouting takes place!

 

Kudu

[hops_scout 9]

Since everybody enjoys spinning this off into the sports world, it is now my turn:

 

Say I decide that I don't like NIKE. Well, that's all my school wears for sports uniforms. What do I do? Am I going to go out and buy a "close enough" uniform so that I can wear it instead of the NIKE one and still be on the team?

 

Truth be told I actually do like NIKE apparal and their shoes. Their company isn't the greatest, but their products are topnotch.

 

The point still is valid

 

Your turn KUDU

[evmori 11]

I don't mean to rain on your parade, hops, but if you are involved in a school sport, the uniform of that sport is required. For Scouting, a uniform isn't a requirement. Big difference.

 

Ed Mori

Troop 1

1 Peter 4:10

A blessed Christmas to all

[Beavah 205]

Hops, da real issue is that if the team/school didn't like their uniform, they'd be free to design a new one. And if Nike didn't produce it for them, they'd have a few dozen other suppliers to choose from.

 

Kudu, who is Mike Walton? A law enforcement official? It is as you suggest a question of contesting something. The government or the powerful are free to trample any right until they are opposed.

 

Which is why, as good citizens, we should always be quick to oppose such nonsense, even and especially when it comes from organizations we support. Though the circumstances in the case you suggested are unclear because it's not certain how the person was using the insignia, it's hard to imagine any appellate division not incinerating such a ruling.

 

 

[Kudu 186]

Beavah, Mike Walton is AKA "Settummanque" or "Black Eagle," See:

 

http://www.mninter.net/~blkeagle/mwalton.htm

 

It was a long time ago, but I believe he was appointed by a local Council to accompany the police and go through the possessions of a molester. As I remember, he said that the warrant specified that they could seize everything with a BSA logo on it, but not third-party Scouting paraphernalia.

 

Kudu

 

[Kudu 186]

ScoutingAgain,

 

There might be room in the laser-tag section of the Guide to Safe Scouting for your proposed rules!

 

Kudu

 

scoutingagain writes:

 

Hmmm, use the uniform method, just not with the official uniform....

 

So which group lives the scout law in it's everyday life. The unit that uses the uniform method, using a non-official uniform,(which as Kudu points out, seems to be within the rules of the BSA) or the unit which requires wearing of the official uniform at meetings and activities to maintain membership and achieve advancement within that unit, which is clearly against BSA policy?

 

So what happens if everyone in a particular unit decided to wear T-shirts and BDUs while camping?

 

We may need a rule that says BSA scouts and scouters shall not wear clothing that is not officially sanctioned by the BSA that would be similar in nature so as to give the appearance that the group is wearing a uniform. When not wearing the official BSA uniform, no more than two persons may wear pants of the same color or of similar design and appearance. No more than two persons may wear the same color shirt or a shirt of similar design and appearance. Units that choose not to wear the official BSA uniform must make every effort to appear as if they are not wearing a uniform. Units that disregard this rule shall be invited to form their own organization that may not appear to be associated with or to be or be considered similar to the BSA. Or they must wait until all members turn 14 years of age and form a Venture crew.

 

Such a rule would save us from Kudu's uniform conspiracy.

 

SA

[Kahuna 172]

Re the confiscation of insignia issue. The confiscation under a warrent having to do with a criminal investigation would be an entirely separate matter. I'm not aware of any case where the BSA has seized insignia for improper use. Of course, the rationale for the ownership by BSA of insignia goes back to the original "may be directed to turn in his Scout badge" thing from day one in scouting, here and in the UK.

 

I can't imagine that even the occasionally tin-eared National Council would get really upset over the fact that the insignia was being used by a legitimate Boy Scout troop through legitimate award channels just because it was worn on an unofficial uniform. It might be very different if worn by some scouting reform organization.

[FScouter 24]

"It might be very different if worn by some scouting reform organization."

 

Like the Kuduscouts?

[Eamonn 61]

While opting to wear a Patrol or Troop uniform can be done and from what I see many Troops are already making up their own uniform standards.

It would seem that some people are more than willing to give these shall we say "Free Thinkers"? A big pat on the back, while others are not so happy with the idea.

OK I confess I'm not happy to see poor uniform standards.

Can a unit do it and get away with it? Of course they can.

They can get away with not using any of the other methods if that's what they want to do.

Still I don't think this is how we teach our Scouts values and I don't think this is how the game is supposed to be played.

Eamonn.

[John-in-KC 311]

Eamonn,

 

To me, the anecdotes are the canary in the coal mine:

 

I suspect there is a statistically valid, systemic issue out there; I posit this hypothesis: The "de la Renta" uniform no longer accepted or acceptable to troops out in the Councils. Units are electing to procure uniform parts of appropriate color outside the BSA supply corporation system.

 

It's up to National to do the necessary sampling to prove/deny the hypothesis.

[Kudu 186]

"It might be very different if worn by some scouting reform organization."

 

Like the Kuduscouts?

 

Baden-Powell Scouts!

 

http://www.1sttarrantbpscouts.org/Info.html

 

Baden-Powell's system had an entirely different approach to insignia, so there is no need to use the BSA's badges.

 

If I was going to "reform" the BSA, I would base a "Traditional" (back to basics) Scouting movement on William Hillcourt's name or nickname: "Green Bar Bill Scouts" maybe :-)

 

"Traditional Scouting" is usually defined as a return to the founder's original program (Hillcourt in this case), making changes only for reasons of health & safety, environmental concerns (Leave No Trace), and advances in fabrics & lightweight equipment.

 

The skeptics are correct, however. An organized effort to return to Hillcourt's program within the BSA would be quickly nipped in the bud. It is better to just read his books and quietly follow his advice in your own unit.

 

Kudu

 

 

[Kahuna 172]

Bill Hillcourt was a thorn in the BSA's side from his retirement until his death. I never got his views on the de la Renta uniform, but he once said that what we should do with skill awards is to put them in boxcars and stick them out on a siding in the middle of nowhere. Then, years later, we could bring them out and sell them as memorabilia, thus making a mint for the BSA. He really did not like skill awards.

 

Too bad he didn't live longer.