I don't get it?

[Bob White]

Here is an excerpt from a string in another thread...

"Last week the boy came to a Pack meeting wearing an orange tee shirt under his uniform shirt. The tee shirt sleeves were longer than the sleeves of his uniform shirt. He had on a pair of charcoal grey sweat pants with his CS belt tied around his waist, and of course he was wearing very beat up white sneakers that were not tied.

 

I may very well show up at our next meeting in a similar costume just to put an exclamation point on how foolish this boy looks."

 

Here is what I don't get. How does this improve uniforming in the unit or in the specific scout. I am open to explainations.

 

Bob White

(This message has been edited by Bob White)

[Laurie]

I don't get that either, and in fact, it sounds as though it might serve to humiliate a boy.

 

Sneakers: being untied--well, they should tie them. As for them being beat up, my son is constantly in need of new sneakers, but if someone would take issue with that, unless they are willing to buy new ones for us to put on his feet, I'd appreciate not having him judged in this way. His troop & troop leaders do not judge him, by the way.

 

Uniforms: Does the boy even know how to dress? Is he aware of how to dress warmly and still remain well dressed? I did not see this post, so I am sure to be missing something, but I'd tread lightly in criticizing any boy's clothing until I knew he was at least aware of the correct way to dress.

 

But that's just me.

[Twocubdad]

Funny you should mention this.

 

Night before last at our monthly pack meeting we had a "surprise" uniform inspection for all the adult leaders. We thought inspecting the adults would be a good first step and we could make a few points without embarassing any Scouts.

 

My uniform consisted of a uniform shirt, unbuttoned and untucked, about six temporary patches hanging from the right pocket and two from the left, no shoulder tabs, a medal I won in the fifth grade, a Florida Marlins baseball cap on backwards, a pair of floral print shorts, official Scout socks and loafers. Mama always said I would be good for something, even if it were a bad example.

 

Not only did we have fun with the inspection, but made a point. Every uniform "error" I demonstrated was one I have seen Scouts make over the years. I'd say it made a very effective point for both the Scouts and the parents.(This message has been edited by Twocubdad)

[Fat Old Guy]

"Does the boy even know how to dress?" This is 2003, the idea of nice pants and a nice shirt are foreign to most kids. At this age, the parents have the responsibility of teaching the kids how to dress. Too many parents will say, "He likes to wear it like that" instead of teaching the kid to dress properly.

 

I was at a wedding and most of the boys in attendance were wearing sport coats or sweaters. One boy was in sweat pants and a t-shirt. Was it that the parents couldn't afford "Sunday go to meetin' clothes" for junior? Nope. Junior refused to wear anything else.

 

[dsteele]

Twocubdad --

 

Ya done good! If you transfer to my council, let me know. As a reward, I'll pay the buck fee for ya!

 

DS

[Twocubdad]

I'm not sure about that, but my son may take you up on the offer. After the meeting he says to me, "Dad, try to have a little self respect. Show some dignity!"

 

I think his old man embarassed him.

[Bob White]

So DS and Twocubdad,

What do you think of the method proposed in the topic of the thread? Is this a good way to promote correct uniforming in the specific scout and/or in the unit?

 

Bob White

[dsteele]

That's alright, Twocubdad. There's plenty of time for you to do it again Let's pray he never embarrasses you.

 

I don't know why, but I do draw a laugh when I hear about kids being embarrassed by their parents. Your story reminded me of a time when I was able to help a fun-loving Dad (whom I didn't know) turn the tables on his cub aged son who was trying to embarass the "old man."

 

The father had taken his son to the barber shop so they could both get hair cuts. The father was in his late 30's and had a long forehead, if ya catch my meaning.

 

I was in the middle chair and the father was to my side. The kid had already got his hair cut and father and son were talking across the room. The kid said, "Dad, this won't take long, you don't have much hair!" and then laughed.

 

I looked at the kid and said, "Laugh it up, buddy-boy! In 30 years that's how long a hair cut will take for you!"

 

the dad thought it was pretty funny. The kid didn't get it.

 

I still have a full head of hair and so does my dad -- but I was laughing at the kid and not the dad.

 

Unh . . . I guess you had to be there.

 

DS

[acco40]

Lead by example. Sometimes the example one sets is how "not" to dress. Different methods work for different individuals. If a leader knows the individuals very well, a somewhat tongue in cheek mocking example may work. If he does not know the Scout very well, it could backfire and have dire circumstances. Therefore, I would not use that method in a Pack or Troop setting by may in a den or patrol setting.

 

Oh, and in the winter, I often wear a long sleeve T-Shirt under my short sleeve uniform. However, I usally do not opt for orange.

[Twocubdad]

The long sleeves under short sleeves is a common thing. Not many folks spring for the long sleeve uniform shirts nor are they going to run around all winter with bare arms. Most people are pretty good about wearing a color that compliments the uniform.

 

As to your question, Bob, if the intent is mean-spirited and to embarass a specific Scout, then obviously it's out of place. But I doubt that was the case. Unless the leader announces "Hey, Tommy, this is exactly what you were wearing last week! How stupid does this look!?!" I doubt anyone will make the connection.

 

But as evidenced by our inspection Monday, everyone had a good laugh and learned something at the same time. Hmmm.... Fun with a purpose. I think I've read that somewhere. If a kid was thinking to himself, "I wonder if I look that dumb with my hat on backwards?" or if a parent was thinking, "Boy, I can't believe I let him out of the house wearing those same shorts!" all the better.

[Bob White]

Twocubdad, which do you think is more important, how the adult meant it or how a child percieves it. If every adult and every scout present finds the imitation funny except for the boy who was in the orange shirt (that for all we know a parent made him wear) is the stunt still worth it?

 

What lesson will be learned the loudest, dress better, or that it is okay to ridicule?

 

Should setting the example as a leader mean setting a bad example too?

 

With all the scouting methods at our disposal do we need to add embarassment as a new one?

[Twocubdad]

So while I'm standing there dressed like a slob, the Cubmaster is going down the line of adults, checking their uniforms, praising one for having a spiffy bolo, pointing out the significance of the funny wooden beads another wears, knocking off points for one not wearing a Scout belt. Quickly, checking whether or not the leaders is wearing official socks becomes a big deal. The leaders ham it up, slowly pulling up their pants legs. Big cheers for the guys with official socks, big groans for the others.

 

Unfortunately, one of the younger Cubs, a little guy who is very sensitive, leaves the meeting crying. His mom later tells us he was upset that he didn't have "real" Cub Scout socks and was afraid he would be laughed at because of it. So what could we have done to spared this kid's feelings? Held the inspection quietly, privately correcting them later? Handed the uniform sheets to the boys and ask them to consider for themselves if they're are Doing Their Best to wear uniform properly? Or just set a good example and hope the boys "get it" on their own? Or maybe we just blow off this whole "proper uniform" thing out of fear of hurting someone's feelings?

 

I've written it once, but I'll write it again: anyone who does something with the intent to embarass or ridicule a boy, or who does someting where that is the forseeable result, is out of line.

 

But it seems to me we are in the business of teaching boys right from wrong. Sometimes that involves setting an example of what is right, sometimes it means pointing out what is wrong. If we can do that in a fun, light-hearted and entertaining way, where's the problems?

 

P.S. I made up the part about the kid crying over his socks. Never happened. But my point is that just about anything we do can be offensive to someone. I had a kid leave a campfire last year in tears because I told "his" joke first. (That one really happened.)

 

 

[dsteele]

In the example given, a leader threatened to show up at a meeting dressed just as the Scout who was out of uniform was dressed. Rather than criticise the individual, I gave credit to the person that they would accept the idea that a better way to encourage boys to wear the uniform properly is to do as Twocubdad suggested -- show up and have a uniform inspection while wearing clothing improperly, with badges in the wrong place, etc.

 

This does not point at one Cub Scout or mimic undesirable behavior. I'm agreeing with Twocubdad.

 

We teach boys behavior and values through a variety of messages -- including our own behavior. I think Twocubdad's example is a good, positive way to teach that there is a proper way to wear the uniform.

 

Singling out an individual Cub Scout for having his shoes untied, etc. and uniform violations is not the way it should be done, but I don't believe the person who posted that was serious. In fact, I think they (I haven't looked up who it was and won't because I honestly believe he/she didn't intend to do that) was looking for advice to get the kids in the pack to follow uniform rules.

 

I admit I'm guilty sometimes of giving the benefit of the doubt too freely, but I'm not about to change. I find that giving the benefit of the doubt not only swings both ways, but people step up to the plate.

 

The person you quoted said they were thinking about showing up dressed up like the offending cub scout. What twocudad and I are talking about is showing up with general uniform violations and pointing them out. In the first instance, the Cub Scout will feel like he was "offending" the BSA -- and therefore is singled out. In the second, everyone in the group will realize that proper uniform is important and will feel like part of a group -- which is one of the intents of having a uniform in the first place.

 

DS

[dsteele]

Okay -- sometimes we hit "submit your message" too quickly. I just did that.

 

If the Cub Scout in question is the only one in the pack to show up in improper uniform, I think the proper way for the concerned Cubmaster to handle it is to have a quiet conversation with the parents about the expectations of the pack and ways to help the kid get into uniform.

 

If, however, the problem involves multiple youth and adults in the unit, I still applaud Twocubdad's solution.

 

DS

[Bob White]

Bear in mint twocubdad, this string is based on the scenario shared in the opening post not the situation you offered, although they do share some elements. So the questions I asked have little to nothing to do with the situation you wrote about. I think the original situation was intended to be a barely cloaked jab at the scout but mostly at the scouts parent. I think to use you office3 and the ability it gives you to speak in fron of the pack as an instrument to shame, ridicule or scold a boy's parent is way out of line.

 

You bring up an interesting point. "But my point is that just about anything we do can be offensive to someone." and I'm not convinced that statement is valid.

 

I have seen effective uniform inspections done using only positive statements toward the boys.

 

"Wow, Tom you look really sharp with your shirt buttoned and all tucked in." "Billy you got the uniform pants that looks terrific." "Shawn I like the way you have your kneckerchief that is the perfect length." James your new haircut makes you look so grown-up."

 

You do not need to criticize a scout over any piece of uniform he doesn't have, just compliment him on the pieces he does have. The boys will realize that the better they wear the uniform or the more uniform they wear, the better the feeling they get. That will motivate a scout to a full uniform faster than anything else.

 

"But it seems to me we are in the business of teaching boys right from wrong."

 

Here is a different perspective, We are here to teach the scouts what is right, so that when the need arises they can recognize right from wrong and be able to make the right choices.

 

Bob