The Goal of BSA Advancement is Not Eagle

[bacchus 10]

"The SM can really determine what is or is not important to the Scouts. This is a good example. If a SM concentrates on a "goal" of becoming Eagle, he shouldn't be surprised when his Scouts disappear after getting Eagle." -bnelon44

 

I think Bnelon hit the nail on the head. And isn't this everybody's worry? When you have a boy scout get Eagle and then they leave the program, that is an indictment of your program, that it's weak. It shows your program is somewhat imbalanced more toward one method over the rest.

[JMHawkins 15]

When you have a boy scout get Eagle and then they leave the program, that is an indictment of your program, that it's weak.

 

Excellent point. More specifically, the weakness is that your program isn't fun. If it's fun, then he'll stick around to keep having more fun, and the rank was just something he collected along the way. But if a lot of scouts "Eagle out", then it probably means they just see it as another task they have to finish.

 

Not many teenage baseball players quit after making the All Star team. Not many guys doing martial arts quit when the get a black belt. Usually those things indicate a guy who's really, really into the activity, enough so that he's become really good at it.

[BSA24 10]

> When you have a boy scout get Eagle and then they leave the program, that is an indictment of your program, that it's weak.

 

Not really. Unless you know for a fact why the young man stops attending troop meetings, I don't think you can slap this sticker on the box and say "weak program" is the reason. Are you also going to say that any other boy who quits the unit equals weak program?

 

Because logically, if getting your eagle and quitting means the program is weak. Then also getting your star, life, first class, second class, or nothing and quitting means the program is weak.

 

Thus, if any boy ever leaves your unit, your program is weak.

 

I don't think you can say that with any confidence. I'd suggest that instead of trying to find a holistic reason for all quitting, treat each boy as an individual and communicate with them about their participation so you can fully understand their personal feelings on the matter.

 

That will probably work better than just planting a flag, sticking out your chest, and saying, "Your program is weak."

 

 

 

(This message has been edited by BSA24)

[bacchus 10]

I said that is the SM's worry, not that it is true. For example, if a young man earns Eagle at 17 1/2 and then you don't see him again that's a little different than if he earns Eagle at 14 and you never see him again. So of course scouters worry that a boy gets Eagle "too soon" and then disappears. But that's their worry, not mine. I just think it's a selfish reason to put one of your troop-based roadblocks in front of a young man who is working on rank advancement.

 

It doesn't make much difference to me as I work with the Venturers and don't really lose them until they move out from their parents.

[bnelon44 17]

>When you have a boy scout get Eagle and then they leave the program, that is an indictment of your program, that it's weak.

 

Maybe it just is an indication that your unit has set Eagle as the ultimate goal.

[Beavah 205]

Maybe it just is an indication that your unit has set Eagle as the ultimate goal.

 

In which case your program is weak.

 

I think JMHawkins' point is an excellent one, eh? Not many teenage baseball players quit after making the All Star team. Not many guys doing martial arts quit when the get a black belt. Usually those things indicate a guy who's really, really into the activity, enough so that he's become really good at it. Just like Eagle.

 

If that's not the case for your program, then it probably means your program is weak. Perhaps it's made Eagle the goal. Perhaps advancement has become just tasks to be checked off.

 

Beavah

[BSA24 10]

> Not many guys doing martial arts quit when the get a black belt.

 

A friend of mine is a karate teacher. He says you're wrong, and that most people who get their black belts quit shortly after. Asked on a couple of martial arts forums - they report the same thing: most people quit in the first few lessons, or they quit after they get their black belt.

 

> Not many teenage baseball players quit after making the All Star team

 

I now believe this to be a spurious claim as well, though I have no data to back it up. Do you have any statistics or anything you can cite that says this is true? Or is it just something you heard before, like the thing on the martial arts, for which it turns out there is no evidence?

 

 

 

[Beavah 205]

Yah, those were JMHawkins' claims, so I'll leave it to him to respond, eh? What yeh say about martial arts programs is interestin' though. It doesn't hold for the lads I know, but I only know a few. I would think da martial arts programs would consider that a weakness and a failure on their part, eh?

 

Despite that, I'd say JMHawkins' principle still holds in general. Not many honor roll students drop out of school. Not many kids who make Varsity as a freshman stop playing their sport. Not many kids who are local area champs on da Robot Team quit robot club. Not many kids who make lead in the school play as a freshman quit theater. On and on (and those I am personally quite certain about).

 

Even if none of those were true, though, I'd still say that losin' our Eagle Scouts is a failure on our part, and makes all of Scoutin' weaker.

 

Beavah

 

 

[bacchus 10]

In my experience with the troops I have been involved in, those young men who earn Eagle stay in scouting until the 'fumes pull them away. Not a whole lot different from those who don't earn Eagle.

 

I understand the frustration though, as I have heard comments from young men in other troops that they don't do scouts anymore because either 1) I'm already an Eagle, or 2) My friends are Eagle and don't go so there's nobody there for me to hang out with.

 

Hopefully our own programs match the first paragraph.

[fred8033 1599]

Is there really any difference of opinion here? Eagle is not the goal. It's a tool / method.

 

The Boy Scout Handbook is written to "use" advancement as a tool. Thus, it gives scouts Eagle as a tangible goal. The GTA and the BSA program in general was created to describe "how to use" advancement as a tool. Thus, it gives the guidance on how to use that tool and references BSA's goals and aims.

 

It's no different than little league baseball. The ballplayer is there to learn skills, win games and win championships. The leagues goals are building confidence, physical fitness, working with others, etc.

 

[dkurtenbach 348]

As Fred describes, boys have one goal while the program has a separate goal.

 

For Scouts, the goal is to advance in rank in order to achieve higher status in the troop and other tangible benefits. For some, that quest culminates in earning the rank of Eagle Scout.

 

For BSA (and adult leaders), the goal is to use the various elements that go into Advancement (skills, knowledge, service, leadership, experiences, etc.) to help boys develop virtues and the ability to do things for themselves and others.

 

The boys are given a simple, concrete, visible goal -- jump the hurdles. The adults are given a more complicated, intangible, subtle goal -- make sure all the hurdles are upright and the right height when a Scout jumps them, [added:] that the Scout is trained in how to jump them, and has opportunities to jump them.[/]

 

What sometimes happens is that adults (parents, Scout leaders) adopt the Scout's goal rather than the BSA's goal. Maybe they don't understand BSA's goal, or maybe they don't know that BSA has a different goal than the boys, or maybe they don't care. All they see is a checklist of requirements. Those adults want Scouts to have lots of rank advancement, quickly, and want to help make that happen. Sometimes that mistaken goal extends to the whole unit, so that the troop measures its success by the type and number of awards it and its members receive. That is when badge-earning standards might be compromised and corners cut (by adults) for the purpose of getting the Scout through the requirements so the badge can be awarded.

 

Dan Kurtenbach

Fairfax, VA(This message has been edited by dkurtenbach)

[bnelon44 17]

Fred and Dan,

 

That is excellent. I think the adult goals can be summed up in the Aims and Mission of the BSA.

 

The aims of Scouting: character development, citizenship training,

and mental and physical fitness

 

The mission of the Boy Scouts of America is to prepare young people to make ethical and moral choices over their lifetimes by instilling in them the values of the Scout Oath and Law.

 

(This message has been edited by bnelon44)

[JMHawkins 15]

Ah, interesting BSA24. I googled around for the forums you mentiond and I think I know where our disconnect is. From the foums I found, I think you're talking about dumbed down martial arts programs that let 10 year olds "earn" a black belt. I was talking about more traditional ones that don't focus on awards but on skill and training, which were the only ones I was familar with. Frankly, I wasn't aware there were so many of the "advancement oriented" MA programs until your replay caused me to research it. So thank you, I stand corrected. Children in MA programs that focus on awards rather than training do have kids drop out after they've been awarded their black belt.

 

Here's an excerpt from a blog talking about what you observed:

 

...many schools have become what are known as "belt factories." (Also known as MacKarate, MacDojos and stripmall dojos) These large -- and often franchised -- schools are in the business of selling black belts. There are schools that will guarantee your child a black belt inside two years. That's right "guarantee." Ranking from these schools are like a fake Rolex watch, they look like something that impresses people who don't know any better. They are not however, indicators of ability or understanding.

 

At this point, we will say emphatically that we do not believe in awarding black belts to children. In our opinion, a person who wears a black belt is required to have a certain level of maturity. And part of the black belt requirements are to teach. It is very hard from what we've observed to leave children in authority over a class of other children of their own age or older.

 

So, I was wrong. But... in being proven wrong, I think I was also proven even more right than before. Quitting after getting the highest rank in a program is a sign of a weak program that "sells" ranks instead of teaching life skills. Scouting or Karate, same-same (as my long ago Judo instructor used to say when comparing things).