Transfers from an LDS unit

[gcnphkr 11]

I have two scouts that joined the unit in May. Over the summer they went to one camp with our troop but spent the rest of the summer in Utah with an LDS unit. As far as I can tell they went to one week of camp with the LDS unit and a few troop meetings.

 

Their father sent me their advancement reports from Utah and I have some concerns. The main one being that in 10 weeks they competed all the requirements for T21 including all the activity requirements. They also seem to have had SMC and BORs for T21 all on August 13th. They also managed to earn the Canoeing, Pathfinding, Tracking, Signaling and Woodwork MBs. While in theory this is possible. I've never heard of an LDS unit doing 8 activities in 6 months much less in 9 weeks. I guess if you count each thing they did at camp a separate activity. I worked with them at the camp with us and they just are not that motivated.

 

I'm stuck with it, but if anyone wonders why I have issues with LDS units, well this is why.

[bacchus 10]

Let me try to restate your issue to see if I have it right:

 

Two scouts spent 4 Summer months in another scouting unit. During that 4 month period, they went to camp and

 

1) participated in the "pioneer" course, or whatever it is called to earn all their requirements all the way to 1st Class;

 

2) they earned the 4 historical merit badges that will only be available during 8 months of 2010; and

 

3) they earned canoeing.

 

First of all, the Summer is when most activity occurs for scouting. If you are going to have a burst of earning anything, it would probably be in the Summer. Summer Camp is a week, and I know in my (mostly non-LDS) council one of the courses is designed to train the younger scouts all the material up to 1st class.

 

Second, canoeing is 1 hour a day for 5 days. And that is double what it needs to be - I know this because the camp did our Venturers a favor and ran the females through the merit badge training for canoeing and it was 1 day, about 2.5 hours.

 

Third, you realize the historical merit badges are only available until Dec. 31 this year right? Have you looked at the requirements? I know a couple of them can be done in 2-4 hours. My (again, mostly non-LDS) council is going to be offering them at a 1-day merit badge workshop later this Fall.

 

So if you want the name of my council to avoid any transfers from here, please let me know.

[Eagle92 110]

Quick question: Who are the scouts registered with? If they have been registered with your unit since May, then why is another SM signing of on SMCs and allowing BORs?

 

As Bac has commented, some summer camp programs will do the bulk of T-2-1 reqirements in their first year camper program, and I have personally sat on a BOR of one such scout (OK it was actually 3 BORs in one nite as this was just after the time requirements were removed and the committee didn't realize one BOR can cover all three ranks).

 

As for MBs, once the counselor signs off, it is a done deal. However if the troop goes on a canoing expedition, nothing says they cannot have their skills checked off in order to go.

 

BUT my major concern is why is another SM doing SMCs and why is another troop doing a BOR?

 

[shortridge 184]

Do the boys know their stuff?

 

Can they cook? Tie knots? Start fires? Pitch a tent? Pack a pack? Use a knife safely? Do first aid properly?

 

If so, what's the problem?

 

Perhaps their apparent lack of motivation when in your troop was due to the fact they've only been members a couple months and hadn't found their rhythm yet. Or perhaps due to the fact that they knew they were going to be returning to Utah with their old buddies and in surroundings with which they were much more comfortable. They didn't have to work hard with you because they knew they were going to do the same stuff back home.(This message has been edited by shortridge)

[gcnphkr 11]

First, not 4 months. Nine weeks in Utah with the other troop.

 

I understand that the historical merit badges are only available this year. I am familiar with the requirements. Although it would be a stretch, even for older scouts, do do those five in a week. Properly done it shuold take 20-30 for those five. If they were very industrious they could earn the merit badges and complete the skill requirements for T21 as there is some overlap. That still leaves the activity requirements as a mystery. Are there SMs out there that count the various events at summer camp as "separate troop/patrol activities"?

 

Re: "why is another SM signing of on SMCs and allowing BORs?"

 

Beats the heck out of me. It is really the part that bothers me. I figure, "MB mill, whatcha going to do?" and so they get their lashings signed off even if they don't know a shear lashing from a diagonal lashing. Not that big of a deal. If they had been brand new transfers, new to our troop I'd have shrugged my shoulders and gone on. Best I can tell, they did separate registrations in both troops. The other troop was aware that they were already registered with our troop but it looks like they did a second registation. I'll need to check the BSA IDs when I get home this evening to see if they are different. Their advancement has been reported to the council in Utah. But they did not receive the rank badges or cards from the other troop. I don't mind giving them the patches, but I really don't want to sign those cards. Hopefully I can get in touch with the unit and have them sent here to present to the scouts.

[gcnphkr 11]

shortridge:

 

They can do those things, I know because those are things we tested them on. I don't know if they know how to swim, I assume they do, but I really don't know. I don't know a number of things.

 

I'm fine that I didn't have the opportunity to find those things out. But, there is enough to make me wonder if they can do those things at all or were they just pencil whipped though by a SM that won't be going camping, hiking, etc. with them for the next ten months until maybe he gets them for a week at summer camp next year.

[shortridge 184]

I'm a little confused. After reading your original post, I thought that the boys were in the troop in Utah, moved to your area, transferred to your troop, then spent part of the summer back in Utah with their old troop.

 

Is that right? Or are they brand-new Scouts who joined two troops in two different councils simultaneously because they're going to be spending large amounts of time in Utah and want to remain active in Scouting?

 

If that's the case, I think a courtesy phone call to the other SM would be in order, just to make sure you both are on the same page about handling advancement, MBs, etc. You can ask for some info on what the boys did this summer with his troop, just to see the types of programs and events they've experienced already - you don't want to have things be boring for them, after all.

 

I didn't even think it was quote-legal-unquote to be dual-registered in two troops, but I'm not an expert.

 

Bottom line is it shouldn't matter if they were in a troop chartered to the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-Day Saints or in a troop chartered to the Church of the Flying Spaghetti Monster. Pencil-whipping is pencil-whipping no matter who does it.

[CalicoPenn 729]

So maybe they were "pencil whipped" through the requirements? Sure, it can be annoying if you let it be, but that's your issue, not theirs.

 

There is nothing preventing you from reinforcing what they've been signed off on.

 

There should be plenty of opportunity in the next few years for them to correctly raise and lower the flag, or to sleep in a tent they've set up themselves, or to plan and cook a hot breakfast or lunch, etc. etc.

 

Getting signed off on the requirements is just the start - they are requirements because they are intended to be learned skills that will be used. If they aren't used beyond the sign off, then what's the point of doing them at all?

 

When I hear/read stories of Eagle Scout candidates not being able to tie a bowline, I don't look on it as a failure of the Scout - I look on it as a failure of the unit (whether its the adult leaders, or the PLC, or a combination of both) in not providing opportunities to use the skills in other contexts.

 

I learned how to tie a clove hitch for a rank requirement - but I didn't really learn how to tie a clove hitch until I spent a bunch of time on the waterfront at summer camp being a helpful pest to the waterfront staff and helping to tie rowboats off onto poles along shore. It was repetition that taught it.

 

I haven't used a sheepshank in years (ok, decades). I've never needed to shorten a rope in that manner. At this point in my life, if I need to shorten a rope, I know where I keep my knife - and I know where to buy more rope if I need longer rope again. Could I tie one today? Maybe. I can picture what it looks like in my head - or at least what I think I remember what it looks like - but I just might have to pull out the old knot book to relearn how to tie one.

 

My opinion is this is an opportunity to review your program to make sure that the skills learning is being reinforced.

[gcnphkr 11]

They started coming to troop meetings back in March. They had never been in scouting before. It took them two months to get registered, finally turning in the application near the end of May. They left for Utah the next week when school was out, they have a summer home there. They did somethings with the troop up there, I do not know what and then returned in July for a week with the troop here. They did not bring their scout handbooks to camp with them but I had recorded the things they has completed and entered them into TroopMaster. There father called a few days later and asked his he could get a list of what the scouts had done so that he could give it to the SM in Utah. So I sent him a report from TroopMaster and that was the last I heard until the father called at the beginning of August wanting to find out about what they needed to do to finish a partial they has in the First Aid MB. I referred him to the counselor. The father called me again yesterday to tell me that the had finished everything through First Class and they were ready to start working on there Star. Today he sent me the advancement record.

 

I'm not angry with the scouts mind you and they will have plenty of opportunity to work on the skills. But if this is what it seems like then they will have some unrealistic expectations about what it will take to be a scout.

[Twocubdad 665]

First, I'd like to suggest we drop the "LDS unit" from the conversation. I forsee its inclusion being more inflamatory than enlightening.

 

Secondly, Eagle92 is on the right track. If these boys were registered to your troop, you are under no obligation to accept advancement sign-offs from other troops or even other Scout camps. As Scoutmaster you control who signs off on advancements in your troop. I assume you didn't designate the dad or anyone from the other troop. Sit down with the boys and go through the requirements with them. If they know their stuff, you (or whoever in your troop handles this) can re-sign the requirements. If not....

 

The MBs are another issue. E92 is also correct that if a counselor properly signed the blue cards, it's a done deal. On the other hand, the boys should have initiated the merit badge process by getting YOUR signature on a blue card and getting the name of a couneslor from YOU. That part of the procedure doesn't seem to have been completed. How do you know if the counselor for the MBs is qualified or even registered? Even from Jamboree there was an advisory that the Merit Badge Midway program had been approved by the National Advancement committee and that troops should accept the jamboree blue sheets and/or electronic records. I think you are entitled -- at minimum -- to verify that the merit badge counselors through their council. I don't think is would be unreasonable for the boys to sit down with your local counselors and spot check some of the requirements.

 

These boys (and their father) have only been in your unit since May. You need to bring them up to speed on what your expectations and procedures are for advancement. In our troop, this wouldn't fly on several levels. I'd start with a conversation with the dad and explain why blowing through three ranks in 9 weeks is a bad idea, even if it's done well. With the boys, try not to make this a negative thing. Praise them for all their work and accomplishments over the summer. Talk about all stuff they did and how they can bring some of it back to your troop. But matter-of-factly, explain they still need to review the requirements with someone in your troop. No big deal.

 

[Eagle92 110]

A few comments.

 

 

1) Definitely contact the SM of the other troop. Something doesn't sound right, and I would check the signatures. Again something is fishy.

 

2) If they did register with the other troop, and if memory serves you can still be registered in multiple units as a youth (I know I was registered in two troops for Canadian trip), and the SM did sign it, it is a legitimate signature, even if they cannot do it. But as I mentioned above, something isn't sounding right. Are you sure they were not Cub Scouts at one time and dad is use to signing off still?

 

3)As others have mentioned, nothing prevents them from continueing to use the skills they learned and did at the T-2-1 level. Heck maybe have them teach the other new scouts.

 

EDITED: when I originally posted, I forgot that youth can be duel registered in multiple units of the same type. When I did it, my "home" troop was responsible for advancement, and my "trip" troop was responsible for the HA trip. Grant you the trip troop's SM was an ASM in my troop, but still everything advment related went through the home SM.

 

Definitely talk to the other SM ASAP.

 

And yes another reason to A) bring back time requirements for T-2-1 like pre 1989 and B) make First Aid MB required for First Class again. (This message has been edited by Eagle92)

[gcnphkr 11]

2CD:

 

Thank you.

 

You're right about the LDS, wouldn't accomplish anything anyway. Beyond my control at this point.

 

Checked in ScoutNet. For whatever reason they are not currently registered with our unit. I don't know if this is because a transfer was processed or for some reason they were never registered in the first place. I get to leave that to the CC to work out. At this point this is a straight up transfer into the unit. I will have the talks that you suggested.

[ScoutNut 147]

They have never been in Scouting before, and take two months to decide weather or not to register with your Troop. Yet, they get to UT and immediately find a Troop to register with, and are able to sign up for Summer Camp on REAL short notice.

 

To me it does not sound like they are brand new to Scouts. It sounds like they were registered members of the UT Troop before they even decided to join your Troop.

 

Dad sounds like a helicopter (all conversations with him, none with boys). You will need to keep an eye on him.

 

Nothing you can do about any of the advancement. MB cards have been signed, BOR's have been held. Both boys are officially First Class Scouts. That is where you need to start from.

 

I also suggest you contact the UT SM. I assume they will be attending that Troop whenever they are in UT, and you and that SM need to get on the same page.

[Mike F 10]

Something needs to be corrected -- Boy Scouts may not be dual-registered in two troops. They may be registered in a Troop and a Venture Crew (or Ship).

 

We had something very similar happen a while back. A family joined our troop because they didn't like the program at their church sponsored troop. No problems - no questions. Youngest son joined at 10.5, was immature and unmotivated, and was progressing slowly through his T requirements. No problem - he was enjoying camping and growing. We knew we could keep him engaged and eventually he'd be willing to knock out those last couple of requirements for T.

 

Dad, however, was very unhappy that son wasn't advancing immediately. The boy wasn't around for a meeting or two in the summer, then shows up for a meeting with his T21 requirements all signed off - SM Conf & BoR included. It was at that point we found out the family's church requires all boys to be registered with the church-sponsored troop, so he was registered in both and just gone to summer camp with the other troop too.

 

It was pretty obvious the dad had done an end run around our advancement program, but we accepted the situation after discussion. The boy was weak in his skills and it significantly impacted him in the troop for the next 4-5 years. The other boys knew something had happened when he rocketed ahead of the pack and didn't have a grasp of the fundamentals. Although he was theoretically ready to be elected/selected for a POR to work toward Star, it was probably about 3 years before he was elected/selected to his first position.

 

We run a pretty skill intensive program and this boy never did shine in that area, but he did eventually develop into a delightful, strong, positive leader and earned his Eagle at about 17.5.

 

We had to do some cleanup work at Council to get records straight. Dad agreed to keep boys registered with church troop as they require, but that would be in paper only and the boys would never get any additional advancement of any form signed off through them without first coordinating with us. Council agreed to ignore the dual-registration issue as long as they never got any more advancement forms from the other troop.

 

This wasn't the most fun issue to sort through, but all eventually worked out fine.

Good luck, Jet.

 

[VigilEagle04 10]

My thoughts on this:

 

1. Call the other SM, and at least get a grasp on the kind of program they have. If this is going to be an every year thing, it's also good to have a good communication flow there.

 

2. For the ranks, if you're going to be the one to hand them over, there is nothing wrong with holding your own SMC and BoR. If they ask why, just simply tell them that you want to insure that any rank you hand out is being handed out properly, that you want to see what they've learned.

 

I have no idea about the merit badges. I have not looked at the requirements for any of the historical ones, so I'm on unfamiliar grounds there. For canoeing, I forget who said it, but they were right about it taking little to no time. I did my canoeing MB in an afternoon when I worked on camp staff.

 

What I'm curious about the the whole Member ID issue. If these scouts are going to have two sets of records throughout their scouting days. It seems a bit odd to me, and I would just make sure if it is a separate ID, that the one for your council is updated with the advancements as well. I could see a serious SNAFU situation occurring in this instance.(This message has been edited by VigilEagle04)