Denied rank advance. to Star...any advice

[SR540Beaver 116]

SeaGull99,

 

Welcome to the forums. As you have seen, we occasionally have a curmudgeon or two who dislike the BSA and take any opportunity to disparage it. I agree with some of the other posters here about having a friendly discussion with the SM and/or CC and ask for an explanation. Actually, I would encourage your son to do this first as it is his advancement. If they give him an unacceptable answer, then perhaps it is time for you to step in. My son is SPL and he and his ASPL just conducted the TLT this past weekend. It too is "required" for those who have been elected or assigned to a leadership position. It is required with the caveat that you need to provide a "good" reason if you can't be there. One boy was involved in a wrestling tournament for school and two others were sick. That in no way will be held against them for advancement purposes. TLT is for the purpose of training boy leaders to fulfill their job role, not for advancement. A boy can request an SM Conference at any time for any reason and an SM can too. Same with a BOR. They are not just for advamcement. The only valid reason to not do an advancement SM Conference is if the boy has not fulfilled all the necessary requirments.......of which attending TLT is not one. The SM and CC are off base in denying his request and they need to explain their reasoning. It can not be supported thru any actual BSA policies or procedures.

[Nike 94]

Seagull99,

 

Don't let this rest. Let us know how it works out.

 

[Eagledad 2779]

While I hold the highest respect for Lisabob in scouting matters, I kind of feel this situation is one step past that point of her advice. I would suggest SeaGull99 read her sons scout handbook on the requirements for the Star rank. Then I suggest she call the CC to set up a meeting over coffee (at her home if you wish) with both the CC and the SM to discuss the situation. Don't wait for a yes or no, but instead give them the choice of two times to choose from. When you meet, in a very kind voice just go strait into it and read the requirements out of the book. Then in a kind voice, ask for the SM's explination of how her son is not yet qualified for the rank.

 

You have to make this meeting as non confrontation as possible, but at some point there needs to be the understanding among everyone there that the SM is adding requirements that are not in the book.

 

You will get a better idea of how to move forward after that meeting.

 

Barry

[dg98adams 18]

If a Troop condition of the POR your son was elected to was to attend the Troop JLT...that can be set as a requirement for the Troop POR...it is not an extra rank requirement.

 

If the Scout performed the duty of the POR without counseling, or being removed, then he completed the requirement for RANK purposes and cannot be held back because now the SM thinks he fell short. It sounds like that it was signed off.

 

The SM conference, is the last "hook". If the SM is looking to "punish" your son, for not taking the training, your SON has 2 options.....

 

Abide by it, life is too short to sweat the small stuff, and wait for the next COH where its likely the SM will sign it off.

 

or

 

Find another Troop. Since he has almost everything signed, it should not be hard to demonstrate Scout Spirit to a new SM in about the same time your son would have had to wait for the next COH in the other Troop.

 

It's not worth banging heads or stirring up issues to force the issue, even though your son should not be held back because the SM is a despot and lacks training.

[fleetfootedfox 10]

The star rank requirement is to serve in a position for 4 months. You have said all this happened just 3 weeks ago. What happened to the other 4 months? If he was in a position for 4 months while a first class scout, then he has met the requirement already and this new position that he started 3 weeks ago should not affect that. If he has not served in a position for 4 months, he is not ready whether or not he's had the training.

 

As a parent, if you are going to get involved, you need to know the requirements and what your son has or hasn't done. You also need to know for sure that what the SM said is really what he said and not your son's 12-or-13-year-old perception of what was said.

 

I think I would need more details before I could decide whether I think the SM is as bad as some people have assumed. Before you go off and leave the troop, make sure you understand more than you have told us here.

[BulldogBlitz 10]

did the SM say he would never hold a conference for your son? did he give a time? does it absolutely have to be "this week"?

[Beavah 205]

Yah, I also am with Lisabob, eh?

 

For da record, a troop certainly can set rules for positions of responsibility like age, or rank, or attending troop leader trainin'. Many good troops do just that. It's expressly permitted in the SM Handbook. Plus, it's just plain good sense to require a lad to be trained for his position.

 

I reckon what's gettin' SeaGull99's goat is not so much that requirement. A brief reflection would say that the requirement is sensible, and if a lad misses the session even for illness he still needs the trainin' and information to be effective. Trainin' is a help to the lad, so that he can succeed. It's also so that the other boys in his patrol get the experience they deserve. An untrained patrol leader hurts other boys' scoutin', and that's not what we want to teach as bein' responsible.

 

What's gettin' SeaGull99's goat is either the SM's failin' to practice "praise in public, reprimand in private", or that SeaGull's son isn't goin' to automatically make rank in the minimum 4-month time. If it's the latter, I'm sorry, Gull, but scoutin' isn't about getting ranks on a schedule or even getting ranks at all. Movin' to Star scout is about your son learning responsibility and leadership, and that typically takes longer than 4 months. Enjoy the journey, and stop pushin'.

 

If it's da former, I'd let the boy address it privately and politely first, eh? But if it's a bigger issue, then a friendly cup of coffee with the SM after the immediate furor dies down is in order, just to offer the gift of feedback. Sometimes good guys get in a rut and don't quite see how they're comin' across. Polite, private, non-threatenin' feedback is the necessary first step.

 

Beavah

 

[SeaGull99 10]

Scouter760: My son has held the PL position since September 2008. I do know the requirements for rank advancement, but only to the degree that they are listed online and in the Scout handbook (hence the reason I inquired as much on this forum). It was not my son's perception of the incident, I personally witnessed it. However, since I am not a Scout leader, I didn't know whether or not the fact that my son had not attended the training could actually keep him from advancing. Before I addressed it with the SM, I wanted to be well-informed.

 

Bulldog: The SM will not answer the questions AT ALL. He was asked in person and via email twice, and he has said he will eventually respond, but "not right now". No, it does not have to be addressed this week. However, new elections will be held next week to take over next month and my son wants to participate in the elections. But, he does not want to be humiliated in front of his troop if the SM decides to say something about the training, my son's absence from training, etc.

 

Beavah: It is ok to have trainings for positions. It is not OK to keep a boy back from a well-deserved advancement (my son has been a First Class Scout since March '08, so this matter is in no way related to the four month requirement of leadership to advance) for his failure to show up at training despite a valid excuse like a severe illness. My son has tried to handle it politely and privately, and he has been stonewalled and treated poorly.

[Beavah 205]

Yah, SeaGull99, maybe I'm missin' it. Yeh said your lad was elected and supposed to have leadership trainin' right afterward in October. Where'd March come from?

 

I think yeh should take a step back and ask yourself "Do you want to be that parent?" You know, the parent that screams at the referee, the parent that goes on a warpath with the coach because their son deserves more playing time, or deserves to make varsity or whatnot? Or do yeh want to be the parent who supports the coach even when the coach is wrong, and lets your son learn from the experience that he's goin' to have to deal with all kinds of people in life.

 

Lots of folks here are scouters, eh? When we read your accounts we cringe a bit, because as scouters we hate to ever see one of our number blow a call or behave poorly toward a kid. So we share your frustration. We'd all disagree with this gent's tactics, if your reportin' and perceptions are accurate. I'd expect his unit commish or CC to be havin' that cup of coffee even before you did.

 

At da same time, we also know that almost all of the adults in scoutin' are really good people - overworked, tired, sometimes stressed people, but good folks. An unreturned phonecall can be a simple as a man's work life or family life needin' to take precedence for a bit, eh? We've all been frustrated and made bad calls at times. Yah, and we've all had to deal with that parent, eh? Makes our volunteer time almost not worth it.

 

Gettin' Star Scout on a schedule isn't worth spendin' a lick of time on. Your son clearly is a lad who will keep up with his scoutin' and make it to Eagle in due course on his own. But right now, demonstratin' to your son how to be understanding and respectful to tired or even errant volunteers is an opportunity of pure gold. Don't waste it.

 

Beavah

(This message has been edited by Beavah)

[Lisabob 13]

Seagull,

 

OK, your son has tried to do the right thing and gotten absolutely nowhere. He's tried more than once, in various appropriate settings, not in the middle of something else, right? (I ask because yesterday, not 10 minutes prior to our CoH, several scouts suddenly announced they were ready for their SM Confs and BORs. Even if we'd had time, there was no way they'd be getting ranks that night because our Advancement guy didn't have extras on hand and had no notice that he'd need them for these boys who came out of the woodwork. At least one of the boys couldn't understand why he got what he perceived as a brush off. He wasn't happy with the explanation that his failure to plan and communicate did not constitute someone else's emergency, though of course phrased more kindly than that. Sometimes "not now" really means "this is a bad time to be asking and you need to learn to plan ahead a bit." Under those circumstances, "not now" might be a very good life lesson.)

 

Anyway, assuming your son has been the soul of patience and maturity about this and still gotten nowhere, then yes, now may be the time for you to take that next step, either talking with the SM or perhaps with the CC. I'm sure you'll agree that you can't expect positive change if the "powers that be" (used loosely) aren't clearly and calmly made aware of the issue from your perspective. Now they might all choose to blow off your son, and maybe you too. They might continue to stone wall. They might take a "my way or the highway" approach. They might continue to publicly humiliate the poor guy, which I agree is horrid behavior. All of those are reasons to step back, take a deep breath, and evaluate remaining options (realistically for most parents who are not leaders, either live with it or leave the troop).

 

Of course, there is a small chance that they might also provide a variety of other feedback to YOU (and your son) about whatever else they perceive to be the issue here. And perhaps, in light of that, there will be reason for one or both sides to re-evaluate. Not knowing you, your son, or the SM, it is hard to say which of these is more accurate. I can imagine scenarios that go both ways. But I think you at least have to try to work it out as patiently as possible first, before deciding that this guy is just a jerk who has an unjustified problem with your kid (and I'm not ruling that out, there are lots of power-hungry adults who abuse their perceived authority over the kids too). Even in serious disagreement, there are good lessons for your son to learn here about dealing with other people.

[SeaGull99 10]

Beavah: How can I be THAT parent if I haven't even been given the opportunity to address the issues because my/my son's calls and emails have gone unanswered for over a week? Also, this is not the first issue that we (and others in the troop) have had with said Scout leader, but it is the first issue that we are willing to go to bat for our son over.

 

With all due respect, your opinion is respected, but not revered.

[SeaGull99 10]

Lisabob:

 

Thanks for the insight. Our CoH for Feb. isn't until the 23rd, so my son's timing wasn't/isn't a factor. In fact, I would not be supportive of a last minute attempt by my son to get a SM conference and a BOR completed on the night of a CoH. In fact, I don't really care if my son gets his Star this month or not. I just want an explanation, a reply, SOMETHING, etc.

[Lisabob 13]

Hey Seagull, keep in mind that none of us know you, the leaders, or your son. This is an internet forum and the responses you get are colored not by local knowledge of your specific situation, but by our various experiences with "similar sounding" situations in our own troops. And I would bet dollars to donuts (now where did that phrase originate anyway?) that ALL of us have met "THAT" parent more than once and maybe have "THAT" parent fresh in our minds too. So you get a lot of conflicting advice from a lot of conflicting angles. It's your job to figure out what fits in your son's case. No need to go hard on us for offering up our experiences and angles though!

 

With regard to the timing of the COH, with respect, you're missing my point. The scouts who did that at our CoH last night showed a poor sense of timing and failure to think about anybody but themselves (and they're all old enough to be a little more aware than that!). But there are other bad times too. In the middle of skill instruction, in the middle of the SM workign with another kid, just as the SM is trying to get into his car to go home so he doesn't miss some family obligation, etc.. And honestly, a week isn't that long a time! There are times when I don't return calls or emails for a week or more, depending on exactly what's going on in the rest of my life. I try to avoid letting that happen, but I can't say it never occurs.

 

After a week I think it is reasonable for your scout to call the SM or email him again (assuming this fellow regularly uses email, not all do). Politely expressing a desire to clear up the matter and requesting a response as soon as is convenient seems warranted.(This message has been edited by lisabob)

[SeaGull99 10]

Tone and inflection are difficult to discern in the written word, therefore, one so inclined could read more into a statement than there really is.

 

The SM wasn't busy when he was approached. He emails troop related emails almost daily, and has returned calls within a day as far back to almost two years ago as I can remember. I recognize that his ability to reply can be hampered by mitigating factors, but he flat out told my son that he saw his emails and would reply when he got good and ready to reply. He is big on exercising his power to the boys: The "I'm big, you're small" mentality. The first time he was approached by my son about all of this he was sitting on the back of his truck swinging his legs back and forth while whistling. He seemed pretty approachable and open to having a chat then.

 

By the way, I haven't mentioned in all of this that my son has a disability and neither he nor my wife or I have EVER asked for any requirement to be modified or altered in any way. And we will never ask, so I have a lot of respect for my son to do things his way on his time. I also respect his wishes to fight his own battles, and he attempted that here, and he was stonewalled without explanation. Any kid, much less a kid with a known disability doesn't need that sort of rejection or treatment from a man that is supposed to care.

 

 

[Twocubdad 665]

Frankly guys, I think you're missing several critical points.

 

First, this extremely important, mandatory training is so important that it was put off from October to February. That the training was not held during young Seagull's term of office is his fault how? He will be offered another chance to take the training when?

 

The SM (and apparently the CC who "ratted" on the Scout is in collusion) refuses to accept a parent's word, a doctor's note and documentation that the boy missed five days of school due to the illness. Keep in mind that the frivolous activities the boy ditched the training was riding to the pharmacy and Blockbuster. It's not like he was at the theater munching popcorn with his buddies.

 

The Scoutmaster refuses reasonable request to discuss the situation or clarify his position.

 

And for this the boy is denied even an opportunity at advancement and is called out in front of his troop for ridicule.

 

Sorry folks, I stand by my original post.(This message has been edited by Twocubdad)