Beavah Posted September 15, 2008 Share Posted September 15, 2008 Bogus ranks and bogus MBs are a festering pus-filled ulcer on Scouting's integrity and trustworthiness. Yah, GAHillBilly doesn't mince words now, does he? So, takin' him up on his challenge, here's a new thread to vent about pencil-whipped "he tried his hardest" "we get everybody to First Class in a Year no matter what" badges. After yeh vent for a bit, then time to roll up our sleeves. What causes this approach to advancement? How would you suggest we fix it? How hard is it to hold the line? I reckon over the years I've seen as many complaints here about Darn GateKeepers holding boys back, eh? Yah, I personally know several lads who gave up on their quest for Eagle after the district approved Eagle Scout for another boy who was, in their eyes, a mean bully who had no outdoor skills to speak of. Lack of honor on our part has a price in da hearts and minds of lads we care about. Beavah Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
OldGreyEagle Posted September 15, 2008 Share Posted September 15, 2008 The first step is to know the program. When it says for Tenderfoot: 4 b. Demonstrate you know how to tie the following knots and tell what their uses are: two half hitches and the taut-line hitch. It means the scout can actually tie the knot and knows how to use it. The same with all the requirements, don't sign it off until the requirement is met as written. It also means that the unit's program requires the scout to use the square knot and two half-hitches so its not forgotten, the same with all the requirements. When you come across a merit badge counselor that is "giving" the badges away, do you stop referring them scouts from your unit or do you let the merit badge dean know about it? The answer to the issues lies with the guy in the mirror Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Docrwm Posted September 15, 2008 Share Posted September 15, 2008 Funny, I just read a press release on a Special Needs Troop (sorry link is on my computer at home) that has been operating for 30+- years that just got its first Eagle Scouts. One man took 20+ years to make it and said that it was the most important thing in his life because he knew he had earned it! Things given away are often valued by the recipient at the cost to them - zero. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Gold Winger Posted September 15, 2008 Share Posted September 15, 2008 Ooooooh boy. Where to start. Let's start with the people who believe that it is horrible to withhold anything from a child who wants it. That's what's brought about high school teams with no cuts. So to say to Johnny, "sorry Johnny but you just didn't get that knot right so you don't get your badge yet" is just plain wrong. Add in the wacky parents who view the badge as the goal and not the skills learned along the way. One ASM in my son's troop used to say (and probably still does) "we got to run these boys through XYZ so they can get it signed off this weekend." Were any skills actually learned? No. It was the classic thing of "here's how you tie a square knot, now show me one. Okay. You're good." Whatever happened to "here's how you do it. Go home and practice and come back next week and demonstrate it"? Mix in a little of the wacky adults who think that kids can't do anything on their own. These are same goofballs that will brag about how smart their kids ("you ought to see him on the computer") but think it impossible for their son to plan a menu for a campout. They pack their kids' packs for campouts, school bags, sports bags, etc. because they believe that the danger of diminished experience outweighs the experience gained when you get to the soccer game and find out that you left your cleats at home. Stir in a healthy does of the looney parents who are bound and determined that their children succeed at all costs. These are the ones who prompted the development of the SAT prep courses, are the nut jobs that berate high school coaches because their son didn't get enough playing time for the scouts to see him, and harass teachers because Johnny's grades are slipping and he won't get into Harvard. What do we have now? Advancement that means little. Eagles who can't find north with a compass. General diminishment of the program. Where can we point the fingers? At BSA with it's misunderstood FCFY emphasis or its overemphasis of Eagle? At councils with their summer camps that either rush through 1st Class requirements or are merit badge mills? At districts that run "Merit Badge Universities" (come Saturday and earn up to six new meritbadges!)? At troops that race boys through requirements? At parents who don't care if the boy learns anything as long as he gets the badge? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
evmori Posted September 15, 2008 Share Posted September 15, 2008 If it says demonstrate, the Scout must demonstrate! If it says repeat from memory, the Scout must memorize! If it says explain, the Scout must explain! If it says identify, the Scout must identify! If it says participate, the Scout must participate! If it says complete, the Scout must complete! If it says visit, the Scout must visit! If it says tell, the Scout must tell! Basic, no! I'm gonna wait to see where this goes before I elaborate! Oh and Beav, no merit badges are required for a Scout to be 1st Class! Ed Mori 1 Peter 4:10 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Beavah Posted September 15, 2008 Author Share Posted September 15, 2008 Yah, thanks, Ed. Though I think I was referrin' to rank badges, eh? GW pointed out some of the likely suspects, eh? Summer Camps, Merit Badge Universities, and FCFY. I'm hard pressed to name a camp that doesn't short lads on some badges. Part of that is pressure from parents and scouters, part of it is just havin' a young staff that isn't great at keepin' to the standards. I've seen da misunderstanding of FCFY drive a lot of it, too, especially because lots of first year boy scouters are comin' up from cubs. They're very much ingrained with the "do your best" standard and da notion that most boys should earn awards in a fixed, one-year time period. A few troops do what OGE suggests and refuse to allow their boys to take some badges at camp or MBU's. But they're trudgin' uphill into the gale in a lot of cases. I'm sort of fond of Kudu's test, eh? A First Class Scout should be able to solo backpack for a Friday - late Sunday weekend, followin' a route both on and off trail, for at least 15 miles or so, without adults. And then row or paddle across the lake and swim the last bit to finish. Every MB and rank should have that kind of practical, adult-less standard. Not "tell" or "explain". DO. Beavah Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
OldGreyEagle Posted September 15, 2008 Share Posted September 15, 2008 I am not sure I understand. The answer is to add more requirements rather than assure that the existing requirments are as Ed has stated, followed? Maybe its time to have carefully selected and trained adults present the program. Having an Accredited BSA Troop program wouldnt hurt either. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
evmori Posted September 15, 2008 Share Posted September 15, 2008 If it says demonstrate, the Scout must demonstrate! Does the Scout have to be an expert at the task? No. Just be able to demonstrate the task. If it says repeat from memory, the Scout must memorize! If the Scout doesn't have it memorized, does he pass because he got close? No. If it says explain, the Scout must explain! Is it required for the Scout to write a paper? Only if the Scout feels this will help him explain better. If it says identify, the Scout must identify! Does the Scout have to actually show someone something? No. Just verify he has identified what the requirement wants him to identify. If it says participate, the Scout must participate! Does this mean the Scout must pass? No just participate. If it says complete, the Scout must complete! Does this mean it's OK for the Scout to get most of it done? No. Complete means the whole thing. If it says visit, the Scout must visit! Does this mean the Scout can read about it on the internet? No. He actually has to get off his duff & go! If it says tell, the Scout must tell! Does this mean the Scout can write a paper because he doesn't like to talk in front of people. No. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Gold Winger Posted September 15, 2008 Share Posted September 15, 2008 "If it says demonstrate, the Scout must demonstrate! Does the Scout have to be an expert at the task? No. Just be able to demonstrate the task." This one is a big part of the problem. "Okay Johnny, cross the ropes, now bring one around and over the other and tuck it through. Yea! You just tied a square knot, I'll sign your book." In the sports world, we look at "spirit and intent" to help us interpret the rules. What is the "spirit and intent" of "demonstrate"? Does it mean, "learn, practice and then show" or does it mean "show with coaching"? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
evmori Posted September 15, 2008 Share Posted September 15, 2008 This one is a big part of the problem. "Okay Johnny, cross the ropes, now bring one around and over the other and tuck it through. Yea! You just tied a square knot, I'll sign your book." I wouldn't consider that demonstrate. To me, demonstrate means you show someone how it's done. Someone walking you through it step by step isn't demonstrating, that's following instructions. Not the same thing. Ed Mori 1 Peter 4:10 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bob White Posted September 15, 2008 Share Posted September 15, 2008 I don't know if it is poor training, no training, or the ignoring of training that causes this, but a number of leaders seem to not understand the 4 separate steps of advancementin Boy Scouting, and how they are supposed to be implemented. The first two steps seem to be the most confounding to some folks. 1)A Scout learns 2)A Scout is tested It seems some are in a hurry to do this as a single step. The idea behind the learning is that the scout has opportunities to practice and apply the knowledge to show that it is truly learned. It is in the application of the knowledge that the scout is tested. If leaders are rushing through advancement it is by their choice, and not by any instruction or element of the BSA program. To blame "pencil whipped" advancement on "First Class First Year" (FCFY)simply shows a misunderstanding of the BSA program on a number of levels. First FCFY is not an advancement process, it is a certificate that a scout can receive for being active enougnh to learn and apply all the skills from Tenderfoot to First Class in 12 months or less from their date of joining the troop. It is also the title of a personal tracking card and and form that can be used to record individual advancment. What people who talk about FCFY are usually refering to is First Class Emphasis. This is not an advancement program for youth either. It is a planning tool for adult leaders, to focus them on meetings and activities that teach, practice and apply the skills that scouts would need to learn to achieve First Class rank during a 12 to 14 month period. The fact that there is a time frame does not mean it is rushed or that scouts should be advanced whether they have learned the skills or not. It just gives the leader an idea of how long it usually takes to be apble to learn, practice and apply these skills if you have an organized, and planned program. If any leader actulally looked at what is required to become First Class they would see that there really are not that many requirements or that advanced of skill or knowledge for this to be difficult to do within the recommended time frame. An active Scout should have no trouble completing Tenderfoot in a 90 day period. Let's all remember that these first three ranks represent the BASIC skills a scout needs to be able to be safe and comfortable outdoors, and until they reach that comfort level they will not be able to build upon them to reach higher skill levels and attempt greater levels of adventure. If you have Scouts 13 and up who lack the basic skills to be able to do things as a patrol without adult supervision then you have significant program problems caused by lack of use of the BSA program Methods. Scouts who advance without knowing the Scouting skills is a problem with the adult leadership in the unit. If the learner has not learned...then the teacher has not taught. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
OldGreyEagle Posted September 15, 2008 Share Posted September 15, 2008 GoldWinger used the phrase: "Where can we point the fingers? At BSA with it's misunderstood FCFY emphasis..." Which meant to be me that it is not so much a BSA issue as a problem leaders have understanding the First Class First Year program Then Beavah says: "GW pointed out some of the likely suspects, eh? Summer Camps, Merit Badge Universities, and FCFY..." followed up by "I've seen da misunderstanding of FCFY drive a lot of it, too,..." So apparently all who have posted understand it's a misunderstanding of First Class emphasis that is the issue, not that FCFY is the problem. Thanks to BobWhite for his excellent description of a mis-understood and mis-used BSA program(This message has been edited by OldGreyeagle) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Gold Winger Posted September 15, 2008 Share Posted September 15, 2008 Thanks also to OGE for pointing out BeeDub's misunderstanding of the misunderstanding. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Eamonn Posted September 15, 2008 Share Posted September 15, 2008 "If the learner has not learned...then the teacher has not taught" I can accept that. But a lot of the time the teacher has not taught because he didn't have the skills needed in the first place. We seem happy to make recruiting a million adult volunteers a goal, but have done little to come up with a way to provide them with the training needed to do the job. We spend a lot more time teaching adults leadership skills than providing the practical skills needed to help provide the Scouts with the basic skills that they need to ensure that they get the most out of the program. Leaders who don't understand the program fall back to providing teachers who can teach merit Badge classes than allowing Scouts the time to practice skills and get good at them. -Which they can't do, because no one knew them in the first place. I'm not for any sort of mandatory training, but I'd like to see new leaders have some sort of card that is signed off showing that they know the basic skills needed to get a Lad to First Class. Eamonn. What whipping is used on a pencil? I bet the sail-makers isn't going to work.(This message has been edited by Eamonn) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
evmori Posted September 16, 2008 Share Posted September 16, 2008 If the learner has not learned...then the teacher has not taught Not sure I agree with this. If this is true, why doesn't everyone pass every class in school? Putting the onus solely on the teacher isn't fair or accurate. The learner has the obligation to attempt to learn. Ed Mori 1 Peter 4:10 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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