Eagle BOR--kid was hardly ever there.

[theysawyoucomin']

Monday I sit on an Eagle BOR.

 

Candidate is over 18. Project done. Merit Badges all present and accounted for. SM very reluctantly signed off- is now having second thoughts.

 

Boy has spent 9 nights camping in the last five years. He has attended weeklong camp in '04 and '05 for a whopping total of 21 days (12 at camp 9 with the Troop) in 5 years. He was with another troop for a time in '02 I can only assume he got other camping in for the Camping MB(that really question if he earned) no matter the counselor already signed off.

 

His POR was as SPL years ago in '05. Far as anybody remembers he did OK. In the past three years that I have observed the Boy has not mentored a younger Scout or passed on anything of value to anybody that would show he was leading anyone.

 

One of those weekends include a "sash and dash" driveby for the white thingy with the big red arrow. He also wears a neato pocket flap with out having paid dues since his ordeal weekend in '03 nor any other OA activity.

 

Some years he attended meetings some years not so much.

 

Boy and parents were asked to appear before the Troop Comm last November because SM thought that his participation is/was lacking. He attended a few meetings (5 total) in '08. He attended a January '07 inter-Troop competition. Attended one night of a cabin freeze out in Feb 'o7. April '07 he attended a highway trash clean up.

 

He spent 4 total days in '07 on other boys Eagle projects helping on non-part-time job work days and when the firehouse pull wasn't so strong. By some accounts he busted his tail on those days.

 

Kid's mother thinks he went to Brownsea and everything since. Thinks the adults in the Troop are stonewalling the boy.

 

Boy has worked at a local business for the past few years; paid for his own car. Boy is a good worker.

Boy has attained volunteer firefighter status and spent most of his time there, his Eagle project benefitted the firehouse. His passion lies with the fire company.

Boy is a good kid.

 

Why should this boy make Eagle?

 

Eagle is not a lifetime achievement award.

 

Some say look at all the community hours he works. I think it is wrong to double dip the firehouse time for scout time and award this.

 

Problem also is we have promoted some in the past who are clearly not up to the moral standards that this boy exhibits. Why stop this one?

 

So do we keep on making mistakes?

 

There are many eyes and many years of experience here, your thoughts please.

 

I know he has an appeal available, he may need it. Boy is a great kid, he is lacking in numbers, numbers of times he participated in anything. Severely lacking.

 

I'm not looking to add to the requirements. This one just doesn't have it all there.

 

One of the ASM's who attends quite frequently asked who were talking about the other night. Does not know the kid.

 

Boy has asked 4 character witnesses to appear on his behalf. This is not anywhere in my copy of the advancement regs.

 

I keep thinking some kid in Iowa is having his BOR on Monday night and has done it all, while this kid sunk to a new low of barely showing up and kept digging.

 

 

Doesn't the kid from Iowa deserve some equal treatment?

 

[GernBlansten]

Seems the boy met all the BSA requirements. He's a great kid, at least you say he is.

Why on earth would you not approve him?

You know it would be immediately overturned on appeal don't you?

Better use of your consternation would be to quiz him on why he is not active. Is it something in the program that is missing? Or is it something in him? Geez, I'm starting to channel BW.

[Bob White]

You are not channeling me gern your are starting to support the policies and procedures of the BSA.

 

Has the scout met the requirements of the BSA? If so then he advances. If he hasn't, then why did the adults who signed off on his requirements, and signed his application, and passed him on his boards do so?

 

They can't wait until the last minute to finally take their roles of Scouting leadership seriously.

[GernBlansten]

No Bob, something's wrong. I'm in complete agreement with you and not even taking the slightest offense to your comment about me starting to support BSA.

[WAKWIB]

It appears that by what you have posted that the boy became Life somewhere in '04 or '05. And he served as an SPL for 6 months which is also the required time of active participation in the troop in the time from Life to Eagle. So I would conclude that for 6 months in 2005 he was a very active member of the Troop. What happened since then is anybody's guess. He certainly must have dragged his feet on some merit badges and his service project but that is not the issue. By all I can see from your post he has completed all requirements...most a long time ago...but they are complete. Just because he hasn't made a significant impact on folks short-term memory does not put his rank in jeopardy.

That does not mean his BOR cannot be a bit challenging (if that is the right word). But there appears to be no technical reason why this Scout can not be an Eagle.

[theysawyoucomin']

I'm the comm chair. and an active parent.

 

When challenged on participation by the SM

Boy said he would step it up and never did.

 

When it came to scouts he was a poser and a taker. Period.

 

Great kid. Fireman. Just certainly didn't give his all to the Troop.

 

And yes, I could care less about the appeal, good for him , others probably think he deserves it , but I don't and if I say no to the BOR then the advancement is not in my name.

 

I agree BOB we do need to take our roles seriously that's why I'm thinking about saying no.

 

When the Boy was brought before the Comm he agreed that he needed to participate more.

 

This is the first chance I have had in any advancement role with this boy.

 

As I said SM regrets his approval.

 

Some silver chickens don't shine as brightly as others.

 

Quizzing him won't change the fact that he did not camp anymore than 9 nights in 5 years.

 

He'll still get what he wants.

 

Gern you've been around a long time you can't tell me you were overjoyed with every advancement you saw go through.

 

The fact that I care enough to question the integrity of the badge should tell you it's not just a passing thought.

 

Thank you both for you opinions

 

 

[Bob White]

uz2bnowl

How many days and nights of camping does a scout need to do to earn the Eagle Rank?

[GernBlansten]

Actually uz2b,

what I'm hearing from you, I heard from our CC last year about two deathbed scouts who were approaching Eagle. Same complaints. Was asking me of my opinion. The boys completed the requirements, checked out for a few years and came back to collect their Eagles. I gave him the same opinion I gave you. He reluctantly passed them, but admonished them on their lack of involvment, especially with the younger scouts. My take was it wasn't so much their problem, but ours, how to we keep the older boys interested. Still haven't figured that one out.

 

Our CC is coming around to it as both his sons are doing the exact same thing those other two boys did. I do like to tweek his nose every once in awhile though.

[GernBlansten]

Oh and uz2b,

I truly wish that every Eagle scout was the image of Neal Armstrong or Steve Fawcett, but they won't be. They fall into wide range of good, solid young men. I bet this young man does, despite not wanting to camp with you much.

[theysawyoucomin']

 

Bob,

depends on what Be active means

 

3 nights in '03

3 nights in '04

2 nights in '05

ZERO in '06 and

1 in '07

 

plus 12 nights in Summer camp. Top 5% of Scouting , I think not. Did he do his best to show up. I think not.

 

 

I've got a kid with 43 nights in 2 1/2 years.

 

One kid with 92 nights in 5 years.

 

I don't quite think the unit is at fault.

 

 

[Bob White]

This is not a contest to see who camped the most. Advancement is individual and ant all scouts do ecactly the same things the same way. My question was how many days and nights of camping is a scout required to do to advance to Eagle and DID the scout meet those requirements. If so what does it matter how often he camped ion the last two years.

 

Scouting is NOT a camping club.

[Gold Winger]

He met the requirements, he gets the badge. He might not meet our ideas of what an Eagle is supposed to be but he's met BSA's.

 

I think that this is one place where GSUSA has it over BSA. To earn the Gold Award in GS, you really need to stay active until you are well into high school.

[Eamonn]

uz2bnowl

Please don't take this as any sort of a put down.

The Lad has passed all the requirements.

If and when he passes the BOR.

He will be an Eagle Scout.

It will be his Eagle Scout Award.

He will know if he has really earned it or not.

You post: "Eagle is not a lifetime achievement award"

I'm mot really sure what you mean.

Eagle Scouts are Scouts who have met all the requirements.

Sure I know Eagle Scouts who lack outdoor skills, I know Eagle Scouts who seem to lack any sort of worth while leadership ability.

But someone at sometime signed off that they had met the requirements.

And that is what is required.

 

If you look at this Lad and are unhappy? Maybe the real answer lies in looking at the Troop program and asking what can be done to make it more attractive to older Scouts? Or maybe finding a way to work closer with community organizations like the Fire Deportment?

Eagle Scouts come in all shapes and sizes, some are the Lads who never miss a meeting, work closely with the younger Scouts, others just do what is needed and move on.

We have no idea what these Lads will do in ten or twenty years time.

I have seen the best kids end up in jail and the little stinkers become priests.

Our job is to serve the youth not make judgments.

Eamonn.

 

[gcnphkr]

uz2bnowl, The scout is what he is. Some scouts are not everything you want. I did an Eagle SMC tonight with a scout that turns 18 in November. He has been on one "campout" in the last three years, it was a overnighter in a cabin for a snowboarding trip. He hasn't been in a tent since May of 2005, and only has 31 days of camping total. He has been a source of disappointment for my idea of what a scout is supposed to be for two years now. But, if he had finished in 2006 none of this would be bothering me. And it would not be bothering your SM either.

 

Think of it this way, should you make it a requirement that every 15 year old scout wanting to earn his Eagle be forced to wait until he is 18-1 week and stay fully active for that time before you will allow him his Eagle? Of course not, that would be grossly unreasonable. But that is essentially what we do with these last minute Eagles when we try to withhold it because he wasn't as active as we would like.

 

I did another SMC last week. This scout has over 110 nights camping. Was my SPL for a year. Has 36 Merit Badges and was made Vigil this Spring. But in all honesty I can't say that this one is a better scout than the other, just a different scout and I am just as proud of both of them.

 

He has done what is required, let him have his Eagle.

[WAKWIB]

The camping requirement for Eagle Scout seems to be really pretty minimal.

Unless I am missing something, the sum total of camping to earn the Eagle rank, is equal to the sum total of what is required for Camping Merit Badge (20 days and 20 nights).

Apparently the Scout in question obtained that. The fact that he was elected to the Order of the Arrow (which was referred to by Mr. uz2bnowl as the "white thingy with the big red arrow"), speaks to the camping issue in a way as well.