Pull-ups revisited

[kittle 10]

I found out tonight that our troop's policy on them is that improvement has to be by full pull-up not partial. Our SPL said he had no problem going with a hal pull-up, but that the committee would have to decide. I thought that things like this were up to the boys and not the adults.

 

I am going to e-mail council tonight and see what they have to say. If they go along with half a pull-up being improvement over no pull-up, I have going to print it up and give it to the committee along with my application to be on the committee. When my son joined, my desire was to be an ASM. I found out that I was pregnant and that it wouldn't work very good with a baby.

 

Ij they count the half pull-up. he will be 2nd class at this COH with only 1 or 2 requirements for 1st.

[packsaddle 753]

What a great question! The requirements do not specify a full pull-up. To me the question would be, can you objectively quantify improvement in a fractional pull-up? If you can, then no problem. If not, I'd say the full pull-up differential is the way to go. The requirement leaves 'improvement' up to the examiner.

 

BTW, the boys in this unit were grousing loudly about the physical fitness stuff, especially the pull-ups. I was almost at a loss as to how to get them motivated. Then, I lucked into a solution: I sent my daughter (a couple of years younger than any of them but full of spirit) to show them what a little girl could do. She did one, then two, then....6 pull-ups. The boys' jaws dropped.

Man, you should have seen them working on it after that! I didn't bother to explain anything about arm length and leverage and such.... No need, really.

[evmori 11]

It could even be how fast they are done. If it takes a Scout 1 minute to do 2 pull-ups & 30 days later he can do 2 pull-ups in 30 seconds, that is an improvement.

 

Ed Mori

1 Peter 4:10

[kittle 10]

I tried to post this last night and for some reason, it didn't post.

 

Packsaddle,

 

I agree that partial pull-ups might be hard to measure. But it isn't hard to say that half a pull-up is more than no pull-up. Especially when the scout has been told by 2 leaders in the unit that half a pull-up would be fine.. But then is told by another leader (committee this time) that they have to be full pull-ups.

[Lisabob 13]

Kittle, I have to say I'm aching for your son - I can't imagine that BSA meant to keep a boy from advancing to even the first and most basic rank for a couple of years now (right? I'm thinking it has been that long for your son) based solely on the difference between 1/2 a pull up and 1 pull up. That's crazy and a sure way to lose scouts. Common sense needs to prevail here.

 

Also, I don't see how this is the committee's job to determine (nor council's - sorry, but I don't think it will help you to drag them in to this and they'll probably tell you to just talk to your troop leaders anyway). I would think that the SM would be the person in a position to determine this. We don't allow the Committee to set the standard for other advancements. Could you imagine if they were allowed to? "Yes, he tied the knot but he didn't do it fast enough." Or "No, we don't think he had sufficient scout spirit, even though the SM thinks so." This is not the committee's role. (I say this as a committee member, myself.) And before anyone says it, yes the BOR comes from the committee, but generally speaking, the purpose of a BOR is *not* to question whether or not the SM ought to have signed off on a particular skill. So it should not come up there, either.

 

Maybe the best thing would be for you to touch base with the SM. If s/he has told your son that 1/2 is ok, then that should stick. Remind the SM of this and ask for his or her help explaining to the committee why this is the SM's call.

 

Oh, and definitely join the committee if you have the time!

[GernBlansten 10]

This is just silly. Holding back a scout so long who is trying on a vaguely written requirement. I'd tell the SM that either he gets signed off, or you will find a troop that has more common sense.

[Hunt 11]

I would find a new troop. This demonstrates an attitude of adult control that will manifest itself in other ways as well.

[packsaddle 753]

"...it isn't hard to say that half a pull-up is more than no pull-up" and I agree too.

[Beavah 205]

Kittle, what is your position in the troop? If you're not a program adult in the troop, I think yeh have to take a deep breath, step back, and let the boys and adults do their thing. You aren't going to agree with everything they do, but they're the ones puttin' in the time. I'm sure you don't want to be the "Little League Mom" complaining about the coach or the referee.

 

You'll find from all the responses you'll get here, that different troops handle this differently. IMO, the "best" programs push kids a bit to really improve, supporting each boy at his own pace rather than rushin' advancement for "this Court of Honor."

 

Beavah

 

[Oak Tree 15]

I'd say the person who gets to interpret the requirement is the one who has to sign off on it. That's all under the authority of the Scoutmaster. That said, it's always good to build a consensus for any controversial decisions. I'd take input from the boys and from the committee. The committee does have some authority here. Since they sit on the BoR and have to confirm whether all the requirements were met, it would be good to make sure everyone was on the same page.

 

I personally really dislike this requirement, for the very reasons mentioned here. The simple, straightforward interpretation would be that the boy should increase his number of pull-ups, as measured in whole numbers. The problem with this is as Lisabob suggests - it's crazy and a sure way to lose Scouts. I have Scouts who have never been able to do 1 pull-up. Should we just tell them that they'll never advance? I don't think this is supposed to be a weed-them-out requirement.

 

So you end up getting various ways of dealing with this. Partial pull-ups, modified pull-ups (which is what we do), timed pull-ups, etc. I'd suggest a friendly chat with the Scoutmaster. Does he really intend to hold your boy back indefinitely over 1/2 pullup?

[Beavah 205]

Yah, OK, I re-read Lisabob's response and couldn't figure out where the 2-year figure came from. Apparently kittle was da original poster on this topic way back when.

 

Sorry for readin' this thread initially and thinkin' "gee, what a flock of helicopters."

 

Still, this ain't somethin' for the council. I honestly think this is just something to encourage your son to have a chat with his SM about. He should explain all da confusion in the troop with different people tellin' him different things about how to interpret the requirement. SM should get that under control. As a parent, you might *politely* back-door that conversation with the SM, just for your own peace of mind.

 

As I've mentioned, I agree with Oak Tree in that I don't like this requirement for TF. I encourage troops to do modified pullups for boys who can't do a single one. Just seems a better standard to me than fractions. But it's up to da SM and the unit, eh? They may choose not to subtract from the whole-number intent of the requirement. I don't necessarily agree with 'em, but I support them. Pushing for personal fitness is a good thing, and in the grand scheme of things, 1 pullup ain't much for kids outside our "supersized" culture.

 

On the upside, if your son has really made it to half a pullup, he's gettin' pretty close. I would expect that another month's worth of regular effort would get him to a full one. Given all his work, seems like a bit of a shame to stop at this point, especially if it means his peers feel he "snuck by." And those muscles really are needed for backpackin' and scramblin' and canoein' and all kinds of fun stuff da troop may be doin'.

 

Beavah

 

[kittle 10]

Lisa,

 

In our Troop, the committee is pretty much the BOR. They have refused advancement because they didn't feel a requirement was done as well as it should have been. If they don't agree with the pull-up, they might not pass him. Yes, it has been 3 1/2 years since he crossed over.

 

Beavah,

 

I am not a registered leader, but I have offered.

 

Hunt,

 

I really hate to find another Troop. The Troop he is in is about 25 miles from the house, the only other Troop that we could consider would be the same distance (in good weather and about 15 miles farther in bad weather).

[evmori 11]

In our Troop, the committee is pretty much the BOR. They have refused advancement because they didn't feel a requirement was done as well as it should have been. If they don't agree with the pull-up, they might not pass him. Yes, it has been 3 1/2 years since he crossed over.

 

Not done as well as it should have been? The requirement states "improvement". Makes no difference how well it's done! And it is the Scoutmaster's call, not the committee!

 

Holding a Scout back because he didn't do pull-ups "well enough" is just plain wrong.

 

Ed Mori

1 Peter 4:10

[Lisabob 13]

Kittle,

 

THREE AND A HALF YEARS???!!!

 

It is time to tell these folks to knock it off in no uncertain terms. Ohhhh, my mother bear instinct is coming out.

 

Print off our replies and show them to your son's SM. Let him know that this is past the point of ridiculous. Remind him of the first-year, first-class emphasis coming down from BSA. Even if you/the troop don't fully buy into that emphasis, 3 1/2 years for a boy to make TENDERFOOT (assuming he is honestly trying) is just wrong. Remind him that it is his job, NOT the committee's, to set the standard for a sign-off.

 

If all you've said about this in the past is correct, these folks are so hung up on their skewed view of advancement that they've lost sight of the larger aims of scouting. Last I checked, our aim was NOT to beat boys down because they can't do pull-ups "well enough" for some committee member (boy, I'm tempted to say that committee member had better be able to do the pull ups too). What on earth is wrong with these people?

 

 

[Hunt 11]

The other troop may be a longer drive, but if it's like most reasonable troops, he'll probably come back from the second or third meeting with Tenderfoot, and maybe more ranks if he's already done the requirements. I just can't fathom the attitude of the troop, unless there is more to the story and for some reason they think he isn't really trying.